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  • AA/Machine gun wish list v5.31 - Continously updateing!

    04. 22. 2010 15:30 PST

Arthur_Suen
Proposition of this suggestion:
adding several AA guns that did exist onboard warships in game but did not have
corrisponding gun that can be load and use by players.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Latest update (v5.31): Q&A section included in this cover post


whole suggestion is revised and simplefied by
replan the sequences.
Photos is resized to help reading the whole suggestion.
New photos added
Prototype list of in game gun specs. (space,weight etc.) added by RSX1 :D
Prototype Graph of Gun range base on RSX1 ideas is added

Next Update : Including a prototype idea of "prem AA gun"
includes some issues that was asked by players which haven't
talk about before in new section "Q&A"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
index:
comparison of KM Flak 38 and UK 2pdr in details -> page 3 [by rockmansuen]
comparison of KM:US & US/UK AA gun range -> see response to Jahmal Q.
Prototype list of In game gun specs. -> page 3 [by RSX1]
suggested range of different nation new AA gun -> page 4
[Supported by Rockmansuen and RSX1]
Q&A: response to Jahmal problems -> page 4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q&A sections:
-> previously asked
- how about adding a Y slots specially for the AAW gunner and machine gun?
-A : that is a NO NO,athough it is good but will invloves of whole game system
to be altered.
- About the US AA gunners:
-A : well apparently it need adjustments also the Type A gun, details in Page 4


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I aren't a pro in these but just hope this would have given a opprotunity for
us to play our game with a wider range of choices,

Adding this gun sure might make lags if many players spray these shell to the sky,
but look at the bright side,

-> it does give another option for Close to mid range AA option
-> give another option for beginner~junior players to have a better (well maybe)
guns that have a higher % to hit planes within in ranges
-> solutions for ships that have small secondary weapon slot to load AA guns
-> Better way out for the beginner FF~CL's, giving them a solution that they can
be 'combat-effective' rather than 'rush and die' 'blocking Capital ships' in GB/GBII

i'm expecting negative comment to this, but please, i'll be glad to see
some comments that state why it is not a good idea to put it in to the game.

[remarks: photos are found from navweaps.com and wikipedia]
___________________________________________________________________
Well as we all know, before the KM SS4 comes out with it 'overpowered' flak38 quad,
there only the pompoms is the guns that smaller than 3" with AA ability,
but after the flak38 comes out [but before French comes out too],
than i start to think :
Now we got 2 existing AA/machine guns that is way smaller than a 3",
but meanwhile they sometimes can be seen onboard a ship structure,
why not making all these AA/machine guns that we can see in the game to come to
service?

As i said above and another post in this section did talk about,
like the USN, it isn't hard to find a 4x40mm bofors onboard a ship,
but all we can do is "watch it in the shipyard,look how it firing meaningless Auto AA
to the sky and not hitting a darn plane"

So, then i look up the web and bunch of history books about weapons,
then i got this list of AA's that maybe ideal to add to game,
Which is merged with Mattmaster56 ideas and comments given:

Japan - Suckish AA, good luck to those fellas. | Comments by Mattmaster56
------------------------------
1x 25mm lvl 14 Arm Sailor
2x 25mm lvl 22 AA Gunner
photos of the 2x25mm type 98 model 2:


3x 25mm lvl 29 AA Gunner
photos of the 3x25mm type 98 model 2:


*Pfft not even a prototype.
------------------------------
Kriegsmarine - Better AA than Japan but still lacking. |by Mattmaster56

1x 20mm lvl 12 Arm Sailor
1x 3.7 cm/69 (1.5") M42 lvl 20 AA Gunner
photos of the 3.7 cm/69 single:


4x 20mm Flakvierling lvl 28 AA Gunner
photos of the 20mm Flakvierling 38:


2x 3.7 cm/69 (1.5") M42 lvl 26 AA Gunner
------------------------------
United Kingdom - Plenty of options, they shall do quite well. |by Mattmaster56

1x 20mm Oerlikon lvl 12 Arm Sailor
1x 40mm Bofors lvl 18 Arm Sailor
2x 20mm Oerlikon lvl 18 Arm Sailor
4x 2 pdr Pom-Pom lvl 24 AA Gunner
photos of the 2pdr. Mark VII quad:


2x 40mm Bofors lvl 26 AA Gunner
8x 2 pdr Pom-Pom lvl 42 AA Gunner <---------- Reduced lvl
4x 40mm Bofors lvl 44 AA Gunner

* Judging by the UK forum it seems the UK will be at a disadvantage
if they class their sailor to AA gunner too soon because it will decrease
their effectiveness with larger caliber guns...oh well.
[My quote: well acutally UK AA gunners if not delay class until lv80 it is almost...]
------------------------------
French MN - Good options,
especially for cruisers since they have a lot of t slots.|by Mattmaster56

1x 20mm Oerlikon lvl 12 Arm Sailor
1x 40mm Bofors lvl 18 Arm Sailor
2x 37 mm/70 (1.46") AA Gun Model 1935 lvl 24 AA Gunner <--------------- Prototype
2x 40mm Bofors lvl 26 AA Gunner
4x 40mm Bofors lvl 44 AA Gunner

*Also there was a land based aa gun called the 25mm Hotchkiss, never used in
the navy but had France not been defeated so quick in the war maybe there would
have been a naval versions as well
------------------------------
United States - Best AA evah! I have nothing more to say.|by Mattmaster56

1x 20mm Oerlikon lvl 12 Arm Sailor
1x 40mm Bofors lvl 18 AA Gunner
2x 20mm Oerlikon lvl 18 Arm Sailor
4x 20mm Oerlikon lvl 28 AA Gunner
2x 40mm Bofors lvl 26 AA Gunner
photos of dual bofors:


4x 1.1"/75 (28 mm) Mark 1 and Mark 2 lvl 34 AA Gunner

4x 40mm Bofors lvl 44 AA Gunner
photos of Quad bofors:

*Like I said nothing more to say.
------------------------------
Mattmaster56 comment on Guns cal. :
Anything smaller than 20mm is ineffective in my opinion which is why I didn't include
the japanese and french 13mm AA Guns.

What would also be great is if they added a few extra slots that can only hold these
smaller aa guns since quite a few certain ships lack enought slots for effective aa
such as the bismarck. Also none of these should ever have HE added or we're
screwed.

  Index

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.31 - Continously updateing!

    09. 04. 2010 22:05 PST

sespeedy
very well thought out and organized. +1!

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.31 - Continously updateing!

    07. 29. 2010 02:45 PST

Arthur_Suen
@ Holycannoli

Once again thank you for your support of this thread, but well unfortunately i do
need to against your point of view once again.

Just before i start, i have to said that, MN do NOT have any AA gunner [yea a
machine gunner but completely useless and locked] instead they use GUNNER
(whatever is cheif.Gun or what), their AA Type Guns are universal.

few updates before just right after i discover this problem than i suddenly realise it
is completely not possible to do any Historical balance except the guns by most
conditions. especially about the Idea of Y slot, it is completely inappropriate to do so
if one of the nation simply dont have that type of Weapon crew,
not to mention the total sailor cap/crew weight etc. @ 120lv will be differ a lot
assuming both the Chf.Gun and AA gunner are lvl on time all the way.

Only by the point i state above, i already see no possibility to add this "Y slot
system" in the game with a balance setting at all cases.

Yeap, i do agree the AAW is very problematic in the game atm, but just as i said
before, there always reason for a dev. programmer don't want to simply remove or
edit a line of code; but building new Model of Guns won't.

I appriciate your concern and support of this thread, but well, i simply think it is
inadvisable to add the Y slot with the machine gun listed in this suggestion, since it
is not pratical and more likely to being ingore with.

________________________________________________[off topic]
well i have to say the pom pom is all good after the last buff,
although i never use the unbuffed ver. of pom pom before,
but after i got my pom pom few weeks ago, it can just do me way more fine than KM
AA at a record of 10000+ AA credit. ( were my highest with KM AA is 15000) , i mean,
jeez, why people so serious of the range of the pom pom?

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.31 - Continously updateing!

    07. 25. 2010 10:30 PST

Holycannoli
My concern is that these guns would replace the current T mount guns, which is not
historically accurate.

These proposed guns already exist ingame in the form of ships' AAW. Of course from
what I've been reading AAW is broken and always has been (it's been 3 years since
I last played and AAW is still broken?). That's why adding 2 new slots for AA/machine
gunners only is a good idea, or at the least it's better than having these guns use
the T mounts.

For the 40mm Bofors:

"6) US ships carried large quantities of this weapon with USS Saratoga CV-3
probably having the most at 100 guns in 25 quad mounts. Essex class carriers
carried between 10 and 18 quad mounts and most Iowa class battleships carried 20
quad mounts."

Most Iowa BB had 20 of these guns in addition to it's R and T mounts. So these guns
are our current AAW, it's just that AAW sucks and the AAW stat on sailors does
nothing.

My thinking is that these new proposed guns have 0 weight since they're already
factored in to a ship's displacement as AAW, and the 2 new slots would only allow
AA/machine gunners or seamen the same way a bridge slot only allows a BO or
seaman. AA/machine gun crew sizes should be decreased and AAW and reload stats
increased dramatically to compensate, because ships are not currently designed to
accomodate two more sailors, and simply increasing ships' max displacement to
accomodate them would cause problems when players purposely do not use
AA/machine gunners to save on the new higher displacement.

Basically, we need a way to add these new guns, which are manual AAW, without
affecting current displacement.

This way, we could have manual AAW guns while keeping the passive AAW bonus
that the AA/machine gunners provide (or should if AAW worked, see next
paragraph), and without losing the historical T mount guns. The manual AAW rounds
shouldn't be the same as the lousy inaccurate AAW we see now, but something
more useful like a pom pom (pom pom usefulness is debatable, but AAW rounds are
even more useless. You know what I mean). It also lets us choose which kind of
AAW we'd like, in the way we can rewrite history and mount guns which would never
have been used in those mounts in real life.

That all relies on them fixing AAW first, which I don't see happening now if it hasn't
happened in the past 3 years. Broken AAW is the biggest problem of all. They did
give us subs which is why I'm playing again after being involved in suggestions for
them so long ago, but there's still too many bugs and things that need fixing, and
there's been plenty of time to do it.

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.3 - Continously updateing!

    07. 25. 2010 02:05 PST

Arthur_Suen
@Holycannoli
Dear mates, i assume that you support this suggestion and thanks in forward,
but unfortunately i have to argue your point about the Y slot.

First and as previously responsed to LePointblank and lucky14 , "adding Y slot" in
replace of the Auto AAW will cause following changes:
-> a rebuild of the game system,
-> re-measurement of the displacement to each ship,
-> re-calculation such as gun weight,shells space, shell weight... etc.

well, maybe just in short, you might want to think of these following questions:

-> if the Auto AAW gone, how neutual ships like FF and DD to AA apart from using
their Main gun?
-> How should the "AAW slot" should be set?
only for the AAW gunner? or open for other sailors to be load on?
-> Displayments/Mount setting ,
how should we set or adjust it but not to affect the overall ship durability ?

not to mention that might be more sub-products like the AAW FCS etc etc. will come
up if the Y slot did introduced to the game.

Yeah, it is cool and a great idea of Adding Y slots, But will be a NO as if it applies to
the game will cause almost the whole game system to be altered.

I do agree US AA is a bit sucks in range, but well, when you get used with it,it
wouldn't be too hard to get a darn fly down.Btw in response to Jahmal's question i
Already put in the suggestion of buffing some of the A type AA's for US.

And oh, there always reason something a programmer don't want to do
adjustments,you never know what hidden chain affect will be trigger if u cut off or
adjust a line of command, my dear friend.

But once again, i appriciate your support :D

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.3 - Continously updateing!

    07. 25. 2010 01:44 PST

Arthur_Suen
[Sorry that i cannot really make all those graph small -_-]
In response to Jahmal problems about the range, following graph illustrates the
current
AA ranges of corrisponding weapons as tagged:
(sorry that the image is too wide,so only posting URL)
http://i26.tinypic.com/fo38li.jpg
it seems that the US most used AA gun, the 3" mk23 D is really lack of range, and if
refer to the proposed range of suggested Machine Gun range,

the existing machine gun, Flak38 from the SS4 got high potential to outrange the
3" mk23 type D.
For double checking and future usage, following graph will illustrate the gun ranges
as tagged:


We can see that the 3" mk23 D and the 5" mk38 D is just barely 5-7 drop marks
longer than the 2pdrs does, which might be just 0.5-2 dropmarks longer than the
flak38 range, or in reverse, shorter.

Which in another words, if SDE do accept this suggestion completely as stated, the
Bofors will properly also out range the 3" mk23 and 5" mk38 [note: both D type] .

So it is really suggested to BUFF the A type US AA guns that refered as follows if this
thread are being accepted and introduced to the game:
3" mk23 A , adjusting the range just barely close to the KM 3.46", Angle -> 37
5" mk38 A , adjusting as above.

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.3 - Continously updateing!

    07. 24. 2010 23:56 PST

Holycannoli
US would have a reason to use AA gunners if they implement LePointblank's idea of
2 more slots just for AA gunners.

It's crazy that it's been almost 3 years since I've played this, and US AA gunners are
still useless. They never fixed them. AAW is obviously not enough of a reason to use
them, but these proposed guns and LePointblank's proposed extra slots could be
the answer to making them useful.

(a simpler fix to US AA gunners would be to drastically increase their reload stat so
that it's more desirable to use AA gunners + A-type guns for AA instead of Reload
gunners + N/L/D-type guns)

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.3 - Continously updateing!

    07. 24. 2010 22:07 PST

Arthur_Suen
@Jahmal
thanks for your valuable support and oh, there goes the very first question asked by
supporting players of this thread which will go into Q&A section later :D

Although i do agrue that i did lvl my UK delay AA just for playing Pom pom but well,
you got your points about the US AA is a bit lack of range and may need adjustment
if SDE really introduce all the guns listed in this thread.
(afterall this is which i mainly play so i know the pain too)

Just gimme about an hr, i'm working on the graph with my mates to help explain and
reply your question :D.

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.3 - Continously updateing!

    07. 24. 2010 17:57 PST

Jahmal
Everything looks nice, but its 1 problem. Nobody will make US AA Gunners just for use
US Machine Guns!
With adding Machine Guns, should be changed range and golden angle in US AA Guns.
Then American AA gunners will be really usefull.


Recommended

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.3 - Continously updateing!

    07. 24. 2010 17:05 PST

whukid
great suggestion.

  • Re : AA/Machine gun wish list v5.3 - Continously updateing!

    07. 24. 2010 17:00 PST

Arthur_Suen
it been a freaking long while after last halt due to some personal matters.
As there is highly-trusted news that USSR will be upcoming before this end of year,
so this suggestion may take another big revise in response to the coming up USSR,
and in next few hours will properly done the beta search for the corrisponding Fleet
Machine guns that are deployed onboard USSR ships in history.

Stay tuned to those whom interested to have your new playing way in hunting fly
down :D
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