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  • Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 01. 2011 18:56


BBpepper
I remember reading an article awhile back about How the Allies where really shocked on how much raw material stock piles the Germans amassed during the war especially Steel,Oil, Aluminum and Copper.Now this goes against popular belief today but lets say for the sake of argument lets say those numbers are true(Allies Believed that the German had Huge stockpiles as far back as 1937!) Ok Here is an ALternate Plan.


4-Scharnhorst Class BBs with3 twin 15inch Guns
6-Bismarck Class BBs
2-H39 BBs with 4 Twin 16inch Guns
12-Hipper Class CAs
4-Project P BCs
???-DDs
???-U-Boats

Now  say that the UK and France don't respond strongly or don't feel threatened enough to have there own Z-Plan or there Political system slows there building program way down.


My question is for all now knowing these conditions how would the UK and France contend with this Z-plan once war started?



regards 

 

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 01. 2011 19:26


BBpepper
Let me add a couple more conditions


1 Uk stay with there building program but they add 2 Lions

2 US same as the UK but they Finnish Illinoise and Kentucky Plus they Build 2 Montanas



ok have fun guys and gals

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 01. 2011 20:12


heatrr
The alternate Z-plan, Z-Plan originally intended, would have required the megalomaniac Hitler to POSTPONE the start to WWII. Instead of 1939, you may well have been looking to late 1943+. Given such a late start date, then one has to factor in what the other nations would have acquired technology and weapons platform wise.

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 01. 2011 20:28


BBpepper
Some of the Ships for Z-Plan the designs go back to 1933 and 1934 by 1940 alot of these ships could have been ready and for the rest you complete them during the war because the germans did have the resources after all to complete them aswell as the know to build them quickly if push came to shove.One way or the other the war was going to start in sept 39 if the Km was ready or not.But remember this just a "what if" scenero.

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 02. 2011 09:42


CLTwolverine
There were the two Z=plan options. The huge fleet that wasn't going to be ready till 1946 or so... and then Z-plan with many small raiders and subs. The smaller more numerous fleet would have done well. All in the the KM fleet in WW2 did quite well considering how numerically inferior they were to the allies and esp. considering they had no completed CV's.

In reality look at how well the Pocket Battleships, Heavy Cruisers, and even Sharnhorst and Gnesienau did on solo/small group raides. Meanwhile, with many more U-Boats and the smaller merchant raiders (which had much success against allied shipping) there is no way Britain and the US would have been able to counter all the ships raiding all over the oceans. The Graf Spee, Scheer, Sharn/Gneis tied down huge amounts of resources in some of their sorties. Imagine if there were 4 or 5+ Pocket Battleships, Heavy Cruisers operating at the same time along with u-boats, merchant raiders, etc.

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 02. 2011 18:31


BBpepper
Originally Posted by CLTwolverine
There were the two Z=plan options. The huge fleet that wasn't going to be ready till 1946 or so... and then Z-plan with many small raiders and subs. The smaller more numerous fleet would have done well. All in the the KM fleet in WW2 did quite well considering how numerically inferior they were to the allies and esp. considering they had no completed CV's.

In reality look at how well the Pocket Battleships, Heavy Cruisers, and even Sharnhorst and Gnesienau did on solo/small group raides. Meanwhile, with many more U-Boats and the smaller merchant raiders (which had much success against allied shipping) there is no way Britain and the US would have been able to counter all the ships raiding all over the oceans. The Graf Spee, Scheer, Sharn/Gneis tied down huge amounts of resources in some of their sorties. Imagine if there were 4 or 5+ Pocket Battleships, Heavy Cruisers operating at the same time along with u-boats, merchant raiders, etc.



Yup i read in Myers Book about the 2 Z-Plans but my point was in my post was if the Allied Occupation report on the Material Stock Piles left over in Germany are to be believed then then Germans did have enough resources to build a bigger fleet then they had historically not a huge US or Uk style fleet but a much bigger one never the less.Now as far as getting it done i am sure they could have pulled it off in 1940 if they started building 1935.

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 03. 2011 19:24


japex
Ummm.. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, US buffs their Navy. US Defeats Japan and swings the full brunt of their Navy against Kriegsmarine. US wins?

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 03. 2011 19:26


BBpepper
Originally Posted by japex
Ummm.. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, US buffs their Navy. US Defeats Japan and swings the full brunt of their Navy against Kriegsmarine. US wins?



Km was doomed that moment the war started to take on the UK and US Navy without a major surface building program was futile U-Boats alone couldn't do it.

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 03. 2011 22:57


japex
Originally Posted by BBpepper
Originally Posted by japex
Ummm.. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, US buffs their Navy. US Defeats Japan and swings the full brunt of their Navy against Kriegsmarine. US wins?



Km was doomed that moment the war started to take on the UK and US Navy without a major surface building program was futile U-Boats alone couldn't do it.


Considering this happened

Originally Posted by TomCruiseLoLoLoL
4-Scharnhorst Class BBs with3 twin 15inch Guns
6-Bismarck Class BBs
2-H39 BBs with 4 Twin 16inch Guns
12-Hipper Class CAs
4-Project P BCs
???-DDs
???-U-Boats


It will be hard for KM to face a navy with a fleet of Essex and (possibly) Midway class carriers.

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 03. 2011 23:15


BBpepper
Originally Posted by japex
Originally Posted by BBpepper
Originally Posted by japex
Ummm.. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, US buffs their Navy. US Defeats Japan and swings the full brunt of their Navy against Kriegsmarine. US wins?



Km was doomed that moment the war started to take on the UK and US Navy without a major surface building program was futile U-Boats alone couldn't do it.


Considering this happened

Originally Posted by TomCruiseLoLoLoL
4-Scharnhorst Class BBs with3 twin 15inch Guns
6-Bismarck Class BBs
2-H39 BBs with 4 Twin 16inch Guns
12-Hipper Class CAs
4-Project P BCs
???-DDs
???-U-Boats


It will be hard for KM to face a navy with a fleet of Essex and (possibly) Midway class carriers.



Very True japex this by no means changes the outcome of the war or the battle of the atlantic it just might have pushed things back abit and given the allies especially the UK a real problem.Also remember that the Allied occupation forces if true found HUGE stock piles of raw materials dating back to as far as 1935 now i know that 20/20 hindsight is involved here but my what if scenero states the the allies don't know to a full extent or feel threatened enough to have a countered the Km building program and also unlike the US with the "Two Ocean Navy Build" the UK and France Political structure was really hostile to expenditure of funds to the Military.

  • Re : Alternate Z-Plan

    07. 08. 2011 05:56


CLTwolverine
Even if the raw materials were available... the main thing the Germans lacked was oil for ship fuel. Lack of oil reserves were part of the reason the Bismarck/Prinz Eugen were the last major atlantic sortie by KM capital ships. The other reasons: Heavily outnumbered, Hitler's fear of losing another big ship, military focus towards the eastern front rather than the west, etc.

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