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U.S Navy

US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 04. 2010 17:11

jotabe	hi, firts of all i will apologyze for my bad english, my native languaje its spannish so i'm doing my best well to the point... The idea of making this topic occurred me after about a full month of using US DD and CL, time in wich i discovered than most of US CL players don't even use US Torps and when my op. lvl growed up i realized than for CL1 Atlanta torps where pretty much dead weight... Ok, no problem, i took torps out, but then i saw Japan and German DDs and CL making a disaster on Blitz and GB2 using only torps (the obvious example its the CL Kitakami lvl 50, but with a lvl 19 DD fubuki or a lvl 32 DD Simakaze u can do a lot of damage with triple type 8 x 4 launchers)... Ok, i can take up to that point, but then i realized that my Mark 12 torps where almost the same as Mark 11, and WORST, Mark 15 torps where not comming in x3 launchers, and the x4 and x5 Mark 15 launchers where too heavy to be mounted on any DD and CL, only usable on CL lvl 43 Cleveland and CA lvl 48 Baltimore... that was too much to handle with without bringing it to light... OK, i'm not going to enter in a dispute about IJN or German torps and torps launchers, they are doing his work fine and its fair than some nation have some advantage over others... but US torpedoes are a clear disadvantage in a central weapon to DDs and CLs wich by the way are the only defense against CA and BB1 in blitz, i have found myself very often fighting with a CL Atlanta Against a CV Mogami and i know that im death for shure because i have no real weapon to try to sink it. US performance in Naval Guns its pretty god, and thats out of the cuestion, but guns can do damage against same or lower lvl ships, against higher lvls u need torps and u need for them to punch hard i have discovered two diferent problems and 2 solution for them that will easly recover US torps to be again a good balanced weapon 1) The Mark 12 Broken Torp a detailed picture about US Torps (for surface units) shows at first hand some serious issues... the picture: Torpedo \| space \| weight \| buy/sell \| speed L/H \| Range L/H \| HE damage 21" Mark 11 11 1593 7/7 32/55 13700/5500 4994 21" Mark 12 11 1593 11/11 32/53 13700/6400 4994 21" Mark 15 11 1742 16/16 32/54 15000/6000 12342 if you compare this stats you will find that US mk11&12 torps have less HE Damage than any other nation Torp, except for Japan Mod90, but mod90 has 3 times the range than mk 11 and 12 - Mk 11: its a bad torp compared with other nations, but its ok as a first torp for a nation that is not specialized in torps or Sub war and its a good weapon for lvl 12 fletcher, a 17 gearing or a 19 sommers - Mk 15: this torp has nice (not best but nice) stats, the problem with this torps relays on torp launcher... and finally the broken torp - Mk 12: this torp its completely broken and here lays one of the biggest problems of US... this torp have almost the same stats than Mk11, even lower high speed and superior ammo cost AND it does not bring any real advantage over Mk11, THIS TORP HAVE THE SAME HE DAMAGE THAN Mk11 wich by the way its almost as lower as neutral torp 24" Type 7 (not to mention than Type 7 has better high speed range)... the only advantage about Mk12 is 900 m. superior high speed range wich u never really use it because high speed torp its used agains close range enemy ships 2) The Mark 15 broken torp Launcher a detailed picture about US Torp Launchers (for surface units) shows various problems... the picture: Launcher \| weight \| space \| level \| req. Sailor \| buy/sell \| Rld. Time \| Rld. ef. Time \| 21" Mk11x3 22 80000 12 Armament 3300/3234 1138 91.04 21" Mk11x4 28 87000 16 Armament 3600/3528 1200 96 21" Mk11x5 33 94000 20 Armament 4000/3920 1275 102 21" Mk12x3 24 90000 17 Armament 3800/3724 1175 94 21" Mk12x4 31 97000 21 Armament 4300/4214 1238 99.04 21" Mk12x5 39 104000 25 Torpedo 4800/4704 1313 105.04 21" Mk15x4 34 115000 32 Torpedo 5400/5292 1350 108 21" Mk15x5 42 128000 37 Torpedo 6000/5880 1425 114 Ok... First of all u will notice that reload Time its grows with more torps on launcher and higher torp has higher reload time... this is relative depending on your torpedo lvl but at same lvl Mk11x3 will reload faster than Mk15x5... second u'll notice than Mk11 torps require less space and lvl than Mk12 and the same goes for Mk12 and Mk15 so at higher lvl torp more required lvl and space... so far i'm not saying anything brillant, but when u take every type of torp launcher one by one the problems came out in light Mark 11 launchers: these are lvl 1 torpedo launchers so they are well balanced in weight and every other aspects, there is no much to say about those except for the weight of Mk11x5 launcher that leaves it out of any ship until Brookling (it would be nice to see it on atlanta, but its a minor detail) Mark 12 launchers are also Broke: as a result of the broken torp nobody really should use Mark 12 launchers, coz they are expensive than Mk11, have more rld. time and mk12x4 its not suitable for DDs and various CL until Brookling. and Mk12x5 its only suitable for Cleveland and Baltimore... with those Mk12 torp stats there is no doubt than evereyone "is using" low lvl Mark 11 or (what happens for real) nobody in US CL use torps... Mark 15 launchers lack of variety: the problem with Mk15 launchers is that first of all there is no Mk15x3 launcher to decide between Mk11x5 or Mk12x4 at brookling stage (mk15x4 has poor space left for reloads at this point) when u reach Cleveland the problem fixes but u are almost on BB and there is no point in using torps, its way better to use AA guns for T-Slots but hey they are for those who wants to use 'em Possible Soluttions: this solutions are easy-applying and should bring balance to US torps 1) rise higher the amount of HE Damage in Mark 12 torps, for example to 7500 HE Damage, to put it in equal chances against other nations torp 2) create a Mark15x3 launcher with a required Space of 31 at a lvl of 27 of torp sailor, this will give the option for many players to choose between Mk11x5, Mk12x4 or Mk15x3 launchers at their Brookling Stage 3) lvl Down Mk11x5 Launcher weight to 32 in order to not to broke it 4) Rise CL. Oakland T-Slots up to 37 leaving the chance for Many oakland players to choose between Mk11x5, Mk12x4 or Mk15x3 (like brookling but with less ammo space and Slots

jotabe

hi, firts of all i will apologyze for my bad english, my native languaje its spannish so
i'm doing my best

well to the point...

The idea of making this topic occurred me after about a full month of using US DD and CL,
time in wich i discovered than most of US CL players don't even use US Torps and when my
op. lvl growed up i realized than for CL1 Atlanta torps where pretty much dead weight...
Ok, no problem, i took torps out, but then i saw Japan and German DDs and CL making a
disaster on Blitz and GB2 using only torps (the obvious example its the CL Kitakami lvl
50, but with a lvl 19 DD fubuki or a lvl 32 DD Simakaze u can do a lot of damage with
triple type 8 x 4 launchers)...
Ok, i can take up to that point, but then i realized that my Mark 12 torps where almost
the same as Mark 11, and WORST, Mark 15 torps where not comming in x3 launchers, and the
x4 and x5 Mark 15 launchers where too heavy to be mounted on any DD and CL, only usable on
CL lvl 43 Cleveland and CA lvl 48 Baltimore...

that was too much to handle with without bringing it to light...

OK, i'm not going to enter in a dispute about IJN or German torps and torps launchers,
they are doing his work fine and its fair than some nation have some advantage over others...

but US torpedoes are a clear disadvantage in a central weapon to DDs and CLs wich by the
way are the only defense against CA and BB1 in blitz, i have found myself very often
fighting with a CL Atlanta Against a CV Mogami and i know that im death for shure because
i have no real weapon to try to sink it.

US performance in Naval Guns its pretty god, and thats out of the cuestion, but guns can
do damage against same or lower lvl ships, against higher lvls u need torps and u need for
them to punch hard
i have discovered two diferent problems and 2 solution for them that will easly recover US
torps to be again a good balanced weapon

1) The Mark 12 Broken Torp

a detailed picture about US Torps (for surface units) shows at first hand some serious
issues...
the picture:

Torpedo | space | weight | buy/sell | speed L/H | Range L/H | HE damage
21" Mark 11 11 1593 7/7 32/55 13700/5500 4994
21" Mark 12 11 1593 11/11 32/53 13700/6400 4994
21" Mark 15 11 1742 16/16 32/54 15000/6000 12342

if you compare this stats you will find that US mk11&12 torps have less HE Damage than any
other nation Torp, except for Japan Mod90, but mod90 has 3 times the range than mk 11 and 12

- Mk 11: its a bad torp compared with other nations, but its ok as a first torp for a
nation that is not specialized in torps or Sub war and its a good weapon for lvl 12
fletcher, a 17 gearing or a 19 sommers

- Mk 15: this torp has nice (not best but nice) stats, the problem with this torps relays
on torp launcher...

and finally the broken torp
- Mk 12: this torp its completely broken and here lays one of the biggest problems of
US... this torp have almost the same stats than Mk11, even lower high speed and superior
ammo cost AND it does not bring any real advantage over Mk11, THIS TORP HAVE THE SAME HE
DAMAGE THAN Mk11 wich by the way its almost as lower as neutral torp 24" Type 7 (not to
mention than Type 7 has better high speed range)... the only advantage about Mk12 is 900
m. superior high speed range wich u never really use it because high speed torp its used
agains close range enemy ships

2) The Mark 15 broken torp Launcher
a detailed picture about US Torp Launchers (for surface units) shows various problems...

the picture:

Launcher | weight | space | level | req. Sailor | buy/sell | Rld. Time | Rld. ef.
Time |
21" Mk11x3 22 80000 12 Armament 3300/3234 1138 91.04
21" Mk11x4 28 87000 16 Armament 3600/3528 1200 96
21" Mk11x5 33 94000 20 Armament 4000/3920 1275 102
21" Mk12x3 24 90000 17 Armament 3800/3724 1175 94
21" Mk12x4 31 97000 21 Armament 4300/4214 1238 99.04
21" Mk12x5 39 104000 25 Torpedo 4800/4704 1313 105.04
21" Mk15x4 34 115000 32 Torpedo 5400/5292 1350 108
21" Mk15x5 42 128000 37 Torpedo 6000/5880 1425 114

Ok...

First of all u will notice that reload Time its grows with more torps on launcher and
higher torp has higher reload time... this is relative depending on your torpedo lvl but
at same lvl Mk11x3 will reload faster than Mk15x5...
second u'll notice than Mk11 torps require less space and lvl than Mk12 and the same goes
for Mk12 and Mk15 so at higher lvl torp more required lvl and space...
so far i'm not saying anything brillant, but when u take every type of torp launcher one
by one the problems came out in light

Mark 11 launchers: these are lvl 1 torpedo launchers so they are well balanced in weight
and every other aspects, there is no much to say about those except for the weight of
Mk11x5 launcher that leaves it out of any ship until Brookling (it would be nice to see it
on atlanta, but its a minor detail)

Mark 12 launchers are also Broke: as a result of the broken torp nobody really should use
Mark 12 launchers, coz they are expensive than Mk11, have more rld. time and mk12x4 its
not suitable for DDs and various CL until Brookling. and Mk12x5 its only suitable for
Cleveland and Baltimore... with those Mk12 torp stats there is no doubt than evereyone "is
using" low lvl Mark 11 or (what happens for real) nobody in US CL use torps...

Mark 15 launchers lack of variety: the problem with Mk15 launchers is that first of all
there is no Mk15x3 launcher to decide between Mk11x5 or Mk12x4 at brookling stage (mk15x4
has poor space left for reloads at this point) when u reach Cleveland the problem fixes
but u are almost on BB and there is no point in using torps, its way better to use AA guns
for T-Slots but hey they are for those who wants to use 'em

Possible Soluttions:

this solutions are easy-applying and should bring balance to US torps

1) rise higher the amount of HE Damage in Mark 12 torps, for example to 7500 HE Damage, to
put it in equal chances against other nations torp
2) create a Mark15x3 launcher with a required Space of 31 at a lvl of 27 of torp sailor,
this will give the option for many players to choose between Mk11x5, Mk12x4 or Mk15x3
launchers at their Brookling Stage
3) lvl Down Mk11x5 Launcher weight to 32 in order to not to broke it
4) Rise CL. Oakland T-Slots up to 37 leaving the chance for Many oakland players to choose
between Mk11x5, Mk12x4 or Mk15x3 (like brookling but with less ammo space and Slots

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 10. 2010 00:47

OmegaViper	i only have one thing to say: you know that USN torps were actually nerfed because people used to TW in somers... this was back in the beta. So you can not expect them to make USN torps any better. Torpedoes are useless at higher lvls, and USN is not for Torping anyways, unless your refurring to TBs. That said have fun in your games.

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 09. 2010 21:13

Compassghost	I sank an Iowa with my Somers once using torps. I lawled.

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 09. 2010 20:13

ben911997	i sank a Cl when i was frigate,it had about 90% HP(health or durability)he was so busy defending himself against other ships attacking him that he didnt,notice me,so i sneak over there and fire my torps,it all hit,and sunk that CL,but i enconter the same prob as jotabe had,i almost sank another CL very close near me and the torps explode too soon,it's not because of the torps range paleaseee,i know my torps range,that CL was near me and i know my torps wouldnt explode that soon becas it's not out of range yet -edit-by the way,i see this stuff call "MACRO",wat are those things,anyway? It's 11:15 over here,EASTERN STANDARD TIME,it's almost midnite and im still online,not alot of mid-nite players over this place u know

ben911997

i sank a Cl when i was frigate,it had about 90% HP(health or durability)he was so
busy defending himself against other ships attacking him that he didnt,notice me,so i
sneak
over there and fire my torps,it all hit,and sunk that CL,but i enconter the same prob
as jotabe had,i almost sank another CL very close near me and the torps explode
too soon,it's not because of the torps range paleaseee,i know my torps range,that
CL was near me and i know my torps wouldnt explode that soon becas it's not out
of range yet
-edit-by the way,i see this stuff call "MACRO",wat are those things,anyway?
It's 11:15 over here,EASTERN STANDARD TIME,it's almost midnite and im still
online,not alot of mid-nite players over this place u know

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 19:01

Stormvanger	well the simple fact is that any DD isn't going to sink any BB3 or higher unless the BB is wounded or poorly played. With proper belt and bulge setups and 900 SD, a somers could empty all it's torps into an Iowa, reload, empty them again, reload, and empty them again and STILL not sink the Iowa. That said, I've solo'd a Dunkerque using a Gearing DDR before. But that's because the player did not know enough about aiming to actually hit me, and he must not have had much in the way of SD or armor. (Inspired manuvering and good shooting with dual 6"/53 D guns didn't hurt either. =) He inadvertently gave me enough time to reload my torps. In most cases, a DD is a distraction to a battleship, nothing more. It's role in larger games is to challenge smaller ships and submarines. And the existing US torps are just fine for that.

Stormvanger

well the simple fact is that any DD isn't going to sink any BB3 or higher unless the BB is
wounded or poorly played. With proper belt and bulge setups and 900 SD, a somers could
empty all it's torps into an Iowa, reload, empty them again, reload, and empty them again
and STILL not sink the Iowa.

That said, I've solo'd a Dunkerque using a Gearing DDR before. But that's because the
player did not know enough about aiming to actually hit me, and he must not have had much
in the way of SD or armor. (Inspired manuvering and good shooting with dual 6"/53 D guns
didn't hurt either. =) He inadvertently gave me enough time to reload my torps.

In most cases, a DD is a distraction to a battleship, nothing more. It's role in larger
games is to challenge smaller ships and submarines. And the existing US torps are just
fine for that.

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 17:00

Compassghost	They are decent. I sank a full health Iowa with my Somers using only torps once, when I was a little noob.

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 16:57

jotabe	well. u-bootswaffe have a lot of problem with their torps, with magnetic or contact fuse... the german u-boot commander during WW2 (yes, y know what it is) have many complains about their U-boot torps during campaing but in game german torps are great in stats and his prox fuse makes h'em the best ones... by the way the problems with Mk14 torps (and Mk15 also) where related to his magnetic fuse, but they had no lack of HE power when they did work... and by the way there are many veracity issues in NF and this is Ok, so veracity in this point in particular its not a valid arg. finally, have detected some short of line with this topic... i said "us Torp mk12 its broken" and i get the answer "dude US guns are effective, u dont need torps" then i response "ok with US guns, but the torps are broken" many players have got used to this way of playing with NF US ships but the problem... and what im only asking for is some more HE damage to MK12 torps... im not asking for an extended range torps like IJN are im not asking for a proximity fuse like germans im not asking for anything to make US a torp-nation im just asking for US torps to be "decent"

jotabe

well. u-bootswaffe have a lot of problem with their torps, with magnetic or contact
fuse... the german u-boot commander during WW2 (yes, y know what it is) have many
complains about their U-boot torps during campaing

but in game german torps are great in stats and his prox fuse makes h'em the best ones...

by the way the problems with Mk14 torps (and Mk15 also) where related to his magnetic
fuse, but they had no lack of HE power when they did work...

and by the way there are many veracity issues in NF and this is Ok, so veracity in this
point in particular its not a valid arg.

finally, have detected some short of line with this topic...
i said "us Torp mk12 its broken"
and i get the answer "dude US guns are effective, u dont need torps"
then i response "ok with US guns, but the torps are broken"

many players have got used to this way of playing with NF US ships but the problem... and
what im only asking for is some more HE damage to MK12 torps...

im not asking for an extended range torps like IJN are
im not asking for a proximity fuse like germans
im not asking for anything to make US a torp-nation

im just asking for US torps to be "decent"

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 15:06

ben911997	Like,That's What He Said,i agree,usn dds sucks at sinking BBs when using guns,so use lots and lots of powerful torps(If U Have Enough),to sink BBs,that's good way to sink BBs if u ae a small surface ship,since u are USN,their torps have the same problacations like the 1s in real life in WW2(world war 2,if u know what this is), (providing real life infos)alot of their torps dont explode when it hit enemy ships,some explode too soon,some wouldnt get released and drop in the water by usn torp planes to sink enemy ships,so it's much similar to your problem,jotabe

ben911997

Like,That's What He Said,i agree,usn dds sucks at sinking BBs when using guns,so
use lots and lots of powerful torps(If U Have Enough),to sink BBs,that's good way to
sink BBs if u ae a small surface ship,since u are USN,their torps have the same
problacations like the 1s in real life in WW2(world war 2,if u know what this is),
(providing real life infos)alot of their torps dont explode when it hit enemy
ships,some explode too soon,some wouldnt get released and drop in the water by
usn torp planes to sink enemy ships,so it's much similar to your problem,jotabe

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 14:10

mako089	USN DDs have little trouble sinking a BB1/2 with guns. Just ask Hachioji

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 13:20

jotabe	well... a couple of things: 1) according to NF manual Japan + Torpedoes are their specialty + Large CV variety + Good Gunners - Very weak armor Germany + Great AA guns + Best Gunners - Expensive armor United Kingdom + Best armor + Best per shell damage - Expensive armor - Somewhat low gun range United States +Great CVs + Well balanced well... a broken Mark12 dosnt seem to me like balanced weapon, if u would say that US gunners are the best i will consider the answer of going only by Guns and forget about torps at lvl 30 (or even 25) also with at level gunners every ship in DD/CL line has very bad spread at least until lvl 40 about the arguing that torp are easy to dodge i will say YES its true, so because they are hard to deliver they MUST make some good damage if u have an US DD and planning to go to GB2 u need to know that u have NOTHING that can damage for real a BB, u need to hit with 5 maybe 6 torps in order to sunk a BB1... ur cannons? forget it! if u use 5.38 in order to have AA Shells u will hit with 102dmg per shell (lets supose u hit with 3 or 4 shells you will take 400 dmg), if u have a 6 or 7 u probably will hit the target with 2 rounds only (depending on DD)... but Hey, dont think that i think than US guns are poor... they are great guns for DD/CL.. but a torp has a different usage than a gun, its a completely different weapon an it has hes very own tactics and usages (i.e. u cant shoot with a gun to a submerged sub, but you can only hit it with a torp or a Depth charge) and the thing in this post is the problem with us broken torps.

jotabe

well... a couple of things:

1) according to NF manual

Japan
+ Torpedoes are their specialty
+ Large CV variety
+ Good Gunners
- Very weak armor
Germany
+ Great AA guns
+ Best Gunners
- Expensive armor
United Kingdom
+ Best armor
+ Best per shell damage
- Expensive armor
- Somewhat low gun range
United States
+Great CVs
+ Well balanced

well... a broken Mark12 dosnt seem to me like balanced weapon, if u would say that US
gunners are the best i will consider the answer of going only by Guns and forget about
torps at lvl 30 (or even 25)
also with at level gunners every ship in DD/CL line has very bad spread at least until lvl 40

about the arguing that torp are easy to dodge i will say YES its true, so because they are
hard to deliver they MUST make some good damage

if u have an US DD and planning to go to GB2 u need to know that u have NOTHING that can
damage for real a BB, u need to hit with 5 maybe 6 torps in order to sunk a BB1... ur
cannons? forget it! if u use 5.38 in order to have AA Shells u will hit with 102dmg per
shell (lets supose u hit with 3 or 4 shells you will take 400 dmg), if u have a 6 or 7 u
probably will hit the target with 2 rounds only (depending on DD)...

but Hey, dont think that i think than US guns are poor... they are great guns for DD/CL..
but a torp has a different usage than a gun, its a completely different weapon an it has
hes very own tactics and usages (i.e. u cant shoot with a gun to a submerged sub, but you
can only hit it with a torp or a Depth charge) and the thing in this post is the problem
with us broken torps.

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 08:06

Stormvanger	Small US ships do all their heavy work with single 7", dual 6"/53, and dual 5"/38 mounts. Torpedoes are used only as a standoff weapon or as a short ranged coup de grace, because they have the worst torps of the 5 nations. Historically this is true as well. USN torpedoes were downright defective until late in the war, and never equaled the superior Japanese long lance type torpedoes in terms of range, reliability, or warhead strength. (Not that this game is big on historical accuracy, but still. =)

Stormvanger

Small US ships do all their heavy work with single 7", dual 6"/53, and dual 5"/38 mounts.
Torpedoes are used only as a standoff weapon or as a short ranged coup de grace, because
they have the worst torps of the 5 nations.

Historically this is true as well. USN torpedoes were downright defective until late in
the war, and never equaled the superior Japanese long lance type torpedoes in terms of
range, reliability, or warhead strength. (Not that this game is big on historical
accuracy, but still. =)

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US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 04. 2010 17:11

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 10. 2010 00:47

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 09. 2010 21:13

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 09. 2010 20:13

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 05. 2010 19:01

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 05. 2010 17:00

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 05. 2010 16:57

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 05. 2010 15:06

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 05. 2010 14:10

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 05. 2010 13:20

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken 04. 05. 2010 08:06

Categories :

US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 04. 2010 17:11

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 10. 2010 00:47

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 09. 2010 21:13

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 09. 2010 20:13

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 19:01

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 17:00

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 16:57

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 15:06

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 14:10

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 13:20

Re : US surface unit Torpedoes broken
04. 05. 2010 08:06