Well its nice to hear your thoughts on this and it seems like you are still open to making
changes which is nice. I still think though that if you leave 5.1" range as long as it is it
will end up overpowered though (I'm pretty sure the GA is actually basically identical to
6" atm but I need to test this further), what I am actually suggesting is coupling a
range nerf with a reload buff for them. I really don't think you want to keep them at
31GA with better DPS as frankly SA AA will end up being much closer to KM then US/UK
instead of closer to US which I think is the idea. If you nerfed 5.1" range with a bit of a
DPS increase and didn't change 6" too much people would have a choice between
range/damage at high level again at least. I really think you are risking an
overpowered 5.1" (and as a result "strong" SN AA instead of "average" as richard is
saying) if you don't touch the range though.

Need to sleep though I'll check this tomorrow. ;)

Yea, phatty's french :P

Ok or he can comment now a little incoherently :P

Phat, we have much different definitions of "usable". I consider UK AA useless; while
US AA being borderline usable.

I want to "consult" mailman on these matters, as honestly, it was more or less me
who made the SN AA "usable but not great" idea >.> ultimately, I didn't change the
main 2 SN AA guns except level and gunspace wise from what SDE gave us.

Edit:

Gjs, first of all, this is a great debate we have going, your opinion is greatly needed.

As far as the reload buffs go, yes, my above post may be a little too much. Though I
would like to tell you that the 5.1" SD-2s are somewhat related to the trip 6" AA
guns. When I went over the trip 6" AA, I originally wanted them to be a rapid fire AA
similar to the minizini's range wise, but double the reload time; since all the 6" guns
of SN share the same shells, it was impossible to do that without screwing all the
ranges of the 6" guns up. The other idea was to make it relate to the dual 5.1"s
and/or dual 6", which is what we did. The GA difference between the 2 gunsets are
at a maximum of 2, and if you use 31, both set of guns can usually hit planes at max
altitude. The reload is a ratio of 2:3 between the 5.1"s and trip 6"; and I actually
forgot about the dual 6" when I changed the reload times.

If the reload of the SD-2s are reduced by 0.2 seconds, the trip 6 will get a 0.3 second
reload buff, and I think that's what you're hoping for also. In my opinion, the 4 sets
of AA guns are really 2(.5) sets of AA guns, as the trip 6" and dual 6" are very similar
to the dual 5"s; a slight difference between weight, reload and damage per shell.

I think you are on the right track, especially with the minizinis, but you need to be
really careful about only adjusting reload as you risk making them overpowered. Like
I said, balancing a game like this is a really difficult thing to do as even a small
change and you go from useless to overpowered in the blink of an eye.

The one I'm really looking at is the 5.1" in this instance. Minizini I think you could get
away with just a small reload buff (I might actually say .2) since it would end up with
a bit better range then then USN 3/70N (GA 37 vs GA 35) at the cost of a bit less
damage. That would probably balance fine with a slight edge to SN. 5.1" SD-2 on
the other hand you really risk creating a "default, don't use anything else" gun if you
buff the DPS too much without nerfing the GA by maybe 2 degrees. Basically if you
told me "you can only have 1 range change" it would be the 5.1 SD-2.

The 6" I'm going to bite my tongue on (sorry), because I frankly haven't played them
enough yet and don't have the necessary bb456 experience to know how thats
going to play out (if what you are saying about them fitting without a speed penalty
works on the real server). From what I have seen just playing with the trip 6"
though I think they might actually be in the best shape of the three sets beyond
perhaps a fairly small small reload buff. Again I don't know enough about the BB
displacement and sailor stats to fully comment. I will say though that I think
balancing 3 different AA sets is exponentially more work then 2 useful sets like most
other nations have. Two is pretty easy since you want to have people choose
between shorter range higher dps or longer range lower dps, but three is just a
bitch unless the third set only really fits on the high teir ships anyway. As it is idk
why you would bother if you get the same range out of the 5.1".

Wouldn't mind hearing what other people have to say though, hopefully richard will
comment when he wakes up.

If you want to make them "that good AA" which isn't the soviet trait, though I told you
thousands of time.

By that, we have to fix the whole AA concept again, because for a good AA to be useable.

No, If I'm understanding richard correctly which I think I am, we are on the exact
same line of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong richard). SN needs a combination range
nerf (off the top of my head, 5.1" to 33-35ish GA instead of current 31) and DPS buff
(a small increase to both would be best to make it more usable at lower levels but
just a moderate increase to damage would work as well) in order to bring it to where
you want it to be between us/uk and ijn/km.

Wouldn't that make the Minizini's obsolete? Better range, and damage while only a
slight reduction on reload while weight and gunspace only affect the lower tiered
ships. By the way, the high level ships (BB4/5/6) should be able to use AA guns
without losing speed (minizini's on Kronstadt, 5.1"s on Stalingrad, dual 6" on BB5,
trip 6" on BB6); though this may be different from the real servers, as test server
crew weight are different from normal servers.


Don't kill yourself thinking about the 6" as currently the reload is so long its more of a
novelty AA gun similar to the Brook/Cleveland 6" and people are unlikely to fit it to T
slots given the weight. The greater good is looking at the guns people are actually
going to fit which are the 5.1" and minizini.

The BB5 and BB6 have enough gunspace to fit these guns (and the trip 6") with
enough ammo for AA, and that's what I had in mind when adjusting the lower tier
guns to work as AA guns for higher tiers. The dual 6" second set will get a reload buff
btw (one of the gunsets I forgot to adjust when balancing DD-CA guns), where to, I
have not yet decided, though I'm leaning towards the same as the trip 6".


Also the minizinis hardly classify as a "spam" AA gun in any sense of the word with a
1.56 reload. This is much more in line with the longer ranged AA guns of most
nations, while the high volume guns are a lot closer to 1 second. (USN 3/70N are
1.2, KM 3.46" are .8, 1.56, IJN 3" are .960, MN 3.5" are 1.56 as well but with MUCH
better range at 25GA, PomPoms are well, what they are). If you buff the reload on
those they need a range nerf as well though, since its currently sitting at about 35
instead of the 36-40ish of other nations excluding MN.

Yes, noticed that about the minizinis. Once gunners are reload capped though, these
guns do quite a bit better; but a slight reload buff could be used, I doubt SDE will
bother if we send in too many AA range changes though, so I'd rather give it a
smaller reload buff than the adjust it's GA and range.

Overall, I want to see if I can get some reload buffs in before range and damage
changes.
Which I'm thinking are around -0.5 sec for the dual 5.1's, -0.3 for the Minizinis,
change the trip 6" to 2 times the dual 5.1"s, and reduce the dual 6" 2/3rds of the trip
6" (which is how the dual 5.1" are matched with the trip 6" right now)

How does that sound? (or is it simply the wrong thing to do at this moment?)

No, If I'm understanding richard correctly which I think I am, we are on the exact
same line of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong richard). SN needs a combination range
nerf (off the top of my head, 5.1" to 33-35ish GA instead of current 31) and DPS buff
(a small increase to both would be best to make it more usable at lower levels but
just a moderate increase to damage would work as well) in order to bring it to where
you want it to be between us/uk and ijn/km.

Don't kill yourself thinking about the 6" as currently the reload is so long its more of a
novelty AA gun similar to the Brook/Cleveland 6" and people are unlikely to fit it to T
slots given the weight. The greater good is looking at the guns people are actually
going to fit which are the 5.1" and minizini.

Also the minizinis hardly classify as a "spam" AA gun in any sense of the word with a
1.56 reload. This is much more in line with the longer ranged AA guns of most
nations, while the high volume guns are a lot closer to 1 second. (USN 3/70N are
1.2, KM 3.46" are .8, 1.56, IJN 3" are .960, MN 3.5" are 1.56 as well but with MUCH
better range at 25GA, PomPoms are well, what they are). If you buff the reload on
those they need a range nerf as well though, since its currently sitting at about 35
instead of the 36-40ish of other nations excluding MN.

Glad you responded though, really.

I also don't understand your line of thinking on why the bb1 would need to be able
to use the 6". If you properly balance the 5.1 and minizini (a bit more range then
usn with a bit less damage) either one would be more then acceptable for a BB1, and
it would remain a competitive AA platform similar to a Guam or PPro.

The BB1 has some really odd T slots; on each side, it has 2 large slots, and 4 smaller
ones. Historically, they are for the dual 8"s and single 8"s, which I've adjusted so the
BB1 can use for blitz. The other option I had in mind, was a mix of trip 6" AA and dual
6" (or dual 5"); so again, gunspace was adjusted for that. Unfortunately, I forgot
about the dual 6" second set when I was balancing AA; thus the reload time is
longer than the trip 6"s; and you cant fit them on the BB1's smaller T slots.

My goal of the mix of trip and dual guns on the BB1 was to give it more AA potential
than any other BB1, as the SN BB1 is without a doubt, the worst BB1 in game right
now.

Also, from what I'm understanding, you want a adjustment to SN AA to make it more
usable, while phat wants to straight out nerf it? Or does phat want a damage/reload
buff also, but a range nerf?

Again, I'd much prefer another AA gunset that can snipe scouts while being less
effective against bombers/fighters, as that role belongs to the 3.9" minizini's which
can probably use a reload buff.

Angus the "weak" MN AA (3.5" and 3.9") does basically the same DPS then SN fyi, at
significantly greater range (25 or 29 GA vs 35). What you are seemingly not taking
into account is that range is not just useful for hitting a circling scout further away, it
also allows you to take more shots at a bomber wave that is heading right at you.
Thats an enormous advantage. On top of that they have the option for a 5.1" or
several 6" with considerably better DPS then the SN guns. Also forgive me for being
a little blunt but I don't think using MN as a benchmark is a particularly good idea, as
that nation has enough issues of its own.

I also don't understand your line of thinking on why the bb1 would need to be able
to use the 6". If you properly balance the 5.1 and minizini (a bit more range then
usn with a bit less damage) either one would be more then acceptable for a BB1, and
it would remain a competitive AA platform similar to a Guam or PPro.

Either way please don't take this as a personal attack or anything, I just wanted to
offer my opinion in the hopes the game might be better off for it. Balance is a tricky
issue to nail down in any game and I realize its something of a work in progress, but
I feel currently that SN AA is just out of wack in a few ways. I just hope that you can
keep an open enough mind to hear what other people are saying rather then feeling
like you have to defend the balance as if it reflects on you personally or something.

-Gj