"any ship within this circle now has the fog of war shadow for 5 seconds"

are you saying that by "pinging", the ships that are picked up would somehow be blind?
Because 'fog of war' is a lack of situational awareness (SA), and that is entirely
unrealistic. In fact, there is no basis at all for the suggestion of that possibility.
Why would they be blind if a sub goes active? BB's are so noisy that all attempts to use
sonar onboard them were epic failures, and ASW is actually easier when a sub is active.

Also, please stop saying "ping". I am a RL sonar tech and your obvious ignorance and
hollywood references of active sonar are pissing me off. Rather than continue to sound
uneducated, please use the term "going active" to indicate the use of active sonar.

Lastly (for now), subs in NF use a mix of passive and active sonar for gameplay. If they
didn't use active, all they'd see is a line going out forever in a compass direction to
indicate a passive sonar noise in that direction. Active sonar is what allows a sub to
determine range. Course and speed are best gained through skilled use of passive sonar.
ASW ships use the same mix of passive and active sonar to find subs. What you are
suggesting is already in use so I cannot recommend this.

For questions about sonar, please feel free to ask someone who knows. I'm here for you.

"Learn to read. I said the actual fighting was done by BB/CV. When did I say AA was
useless?"

CA's and Cl's do contribute to the battlefield with aa and with torp walling in some cases

">Do I even have aa in the first place?"
That's your problem. Don't whine about planes if you don't have AA. Don't whine
about subs if you don't have ASW."

The point is that ASW currently doesn't have the incentive for a larger body of people
because of the low amount of exp that it gives. AA has a huge incentive and thus everyone
chooses that one, not to mention that using AA means that you have more use the whole
game. What happens if there are no subs or all the subs are dead? My ASW is dead weight.
AA is useful the whole game.

"Nonetheless it does matter"
I said I (as in ME personally) don't care. Where are you getting all of this from?"

Slinging provides a dynamic opportunity that increases range at the expense of skill in bb
fighting. What dynamic do subs have?

"The only thing keeping the laser lances that subs use balanced"
Also the ASW weapons, which are completely OP, that people refuse to use. Subs
would be completely underpowered if people decided to use these."

See above

"and hedgehogs have that terrible reload rate thing hm?"
Good gunners give 15 (I think?) second reload. Since 1 salvo kills a sub, this has the
capability of killing 1 sub every 15 seconds assuming there is not some odd glitch or
a sub that constantly watches for HH launching (which happens very little).

People who are in the optimal range for asw (DD to CL) are not going to have reload capped
gunners and besides the 15 second rate is only for prem which are horribly overpriced. The
real set you should be talking about is the normal one, which fires less shots, does less
damage and takes sixty seconds to reload. I used a whole 6 HH broadside on a sub, and that
merely put it in the yellow; again not to mention the lack of incentive to use it.

"Wait why are you even posting in the first place? You've done nothing related to the
thread here."

You're the one who posted umad and incited responses

"My point still stands because aa killing that critical scout or wave of dbs can be very
crucial"
Learn to read. I said the actual fighting was done by BB/CV. When did I say AA was
useless?

">Doesn't use dragging
>Doesn't realize the incatracies of cv gameplay"
Still another invalid point. You said "Can my fighters win against the enemy?".
If you can't win with dragging, it counts as not being able to defeat the enemy. How
does that point make ANY sense then?

">Do I even have aa in the first place?"
That's your problem. Don't whine about planes if you don't have AA. Don't whine
about subs if you don't have ASW.

"Nonetheless it does matter"
I said I (as in ME personally) don't care. Where are you getting all of this from?

"You are clearly simplifying things"
Yes I am, just like you are.

"The only thing keeping the laser lances that subs use balanced"
Also the ASW weapons, which are completely OP, that people refuse to use. Subs
would be completely underpowered if people decided to use these.

"and hedgehogs have that terrible reload rate thing hm?"
Good gunners give 15 (I think?) second reload. Since 1 salvo kills a sub, this has the
capability of killing 1 sub every 15 seconds assuming there is not some odd glitch or
a sub that constantly watches for HH launching (which happens very little).

Yes I simplified a lot in general. I'm just doing exactly what you're doing. Not even
going to argue other points because I have to reason to waste more time right now.

Wait why are you even posting in the first place? You've done nothing related to the
thread here.

Sigh. Of course a lousy comeback.

"">Typical cv gameplay"
"1. Should I go north or south?"
Go wherever other CVs aren't"

>doesn't understand what cvs do

"2. Should I scout or cover for dbs?"
Listen to all of the whining BBs.

no

"3. Should I load some bombers?"
Same as 2.

your sarcasm is strong

"4. How many pilots should I load on each pilot?"
However many you want.

>Doesn't realize that it depends on how many of each type of pilot you have and how long
you can expect your current planes to keep fighting

""5. Can I dodge the fighters well enough to bomb properly?"
Depends on the situation."

This factors into determining whether you should load bombers or not

""6. Can I even hit that tiny sevas with my bombers or should I go for a bigger
target?"
If you question whether or not you can hit it, it is probably too small."

You never used bombers properly so you don't realize that target priority, angle of
approach, number of bombers and how they are spread affect whether you should hit
something or not.

"7. Can my fighters win against the enemy?"
IF Y: Send fighters to fight fighters.
IF N: Don't send fighters into other fighters.

>Doesn't use dragging
>Doesn't realize the incatracies of cv gameplay

Really, the hardest part you said was 5. Really it was just common sense.

">Typical bb gameplay
1. Where should I send my scout?"
Who the **** cares? Either way you will forget to manage it.
If you DO remember to manage it, send it when blind and don't waste them all at
once.
"2. Should I go north or south?"
Wherever there are less BBs or less skilled BBs

Support the line, predict movements of enemy bbs based on ship type and player
"3. Should I aa that scout before he gets sight on me?"
No duh smart one.

>Instead of firing another salvo?
>Do I even have aa in the first place?

"4. Should I sling?"
Doesn't matter to me.

Nonetheless it does matter

"5. When should I rush?"
When you are clearly not going to easily die.

You are clearly simplifying things
"6. Do I have more range than my enemy or not?"
Figure out what you outrange before you do battles.

>North south advantage
>hitboxes
>different gunsets using the same sprite

"7. Is my enemy armored? Should I switch to ap?"
Is it a FG L2?
IF Y: Use AP
IF N: Most likely use HE.
Otherwise, just take a salvo and find out.
"8. Is there a sub near me?
IF Y: Well gg
IF N: Okay well continue then Before that"
IF Y: Run the other way smart one. Use OH and outrun it.
IF N: Just keep playing.
Again, most points are just common sense.

">Typical sub gameplay
1. LOOK FOR BB"
Also dive late for more air, but before major damage is done. Otherwise, that point is
correct.
"2. IS BB IN MY SIGHT RANGE?
IF Y: SHOOT TORPEDOES
IF N: GET HIM IN MY SIGHT RANGE"
Pretty much same for BB. Goes like this.

You have to avoid combat with certain things if you are outranged or if other factors apply.
For subs this does not apply because they can't hit you at all.

IS BB IN RANGE?
IF Y: FIRE
IF N: GET IN RANGE.

Simplifying a delicate process

"3. IS BB DEAD?
IF Y: FIND ANOTHER BB
IF N: SHOOT MORE TORPEDOES"
IF Y: HOPE YOU DON'T RUN OUT OF AIR FINDING ANOTHER ONE.
IF N: HOPE YOU DON'T RUN OUT OF AIR TURNING AROUND TO SHOOT AGAIN.

>Use smoke
>Air recharged for the next three minutes

"4. REPEAT AD INFINITUM"
SO WHAT'S SO DIFFERENT BETWEEN THIS AND OTHER SHIPS?

There is a lot less things to consider when using a sub. The one thing you need to do is
be able to kill enemy subs more efficiently and then you're set.

""(I'm guessing) it was probably only BBs vs CVs."

>implying that aa and other support ships do not exist"
I meant fighting was only done by them, as in CAs barely did any attack.

My point still stands because aa killing that critical scout or wave of dbs can be very
crucial

">Subs
>Require zero skill
>Point and shoot
>Might as well be just playing CoD
>Oh wait subs are even easier than that die to only firing on a 2 dimensional plane"

Less supports.
"SS has to turn to turn weapons."

The only thing keeping the laser lances that subs use balanced

"A LOT less ammo than other ships."

Dunno you don't need to waste a shot to see your range, you don't miss because
lolsplashdamage so yea

"Has to get VERY close to ships to attack (compared to BB/CV)."

Yes and once you do close that range they are doomed. It is also very easy to close this
range because of the submerge ability

"Rarely last til end of battle."

Most BBs don't last till the end of the battle either

"Usually run out of air next to BB."

That only happens if you're stupid

"Rarely kill CVs."

The two or three bb advantage that the side with the winning subs usually overturns this

""The point of SS is to make it more exciting. Instead of almost all BBs able to defend
from all other classes, they are forced to be vulnerable to something."

That's giving BBs a hard counter without a hard counter to fight back with
And don't say asw because that doesn't reward enough to allow anyone to play it
properly"

Go cry some moar about less reward. You either have to live with low reward from
killing SS, or die from SS. Your choice. DC can kill SS in 1 salvo. HH can kill SS in 1
salvo. Where's the problem? It's balanced, BBs just choose not to use ASW and then
go cry about it. Choose between protection from planes/scouts or subs. Don't whine
because you didn't have defenses against the other type of attack."

ASW is inherently broken because using it puts one at a complete disadvantage against
targets. Furthermore it gives less reward than charging out in a dd and getting one
attack. QED for those who can't understand, noone will play it. Don't say the same about
subs because the reason people play those is because they are inherently overpowered
despite the exp decrease. There is no incentive thus it might as well not be in the game.

""Subs were a part of WW2 and shouldn't be nerfed to oblivion."

>implying that torpedo splash doing just as much damage is not overpowered "
HH and DC are plenty. Splash from them is worse than torps. Again, don't whine
because you refuse to defend.

This is plenty for me to say. I really don't need to say much more to you."

DC's do damage to the user as well, and hedgehogs have that terrible reload rate thing hm?

Just say "Marco" in All Chat.

Get better sonarman.
Also lately number of subs that dont suck misebly against anything under CA is so little
that is almost ironic.

Scouthing is for CV and BB scouths. Your job as SS is to defend your team against enemy
subs or try to get to unescorted BB.

Also even if it's codet to the game do you think anyone with his mind will use it? SS have
stealth as only defence. Take it away and they are nothing more than slow TW.

@Koala - the last point you made there makes perfect sense. There has to be a difference
in the range or subs wouldn't have a reason to ping. And you can't make it bigger, so
you'd have to nerf their radar... which in effect makes them not want to make a change...

Sigh. Of course a lousy comeback.

">Typical cv gameplay"
"1. Should I go north or south?"
Go wherever other CVs aren't
"2. Should I scout or cover for dbs?"
Listen to all of the whining BBs.
"3. Should I load some bombers?"
Same as 2.
"4. How many pilots should I load on each pilot?"
However many you want.
"5. Can I dodge the fighters well enough to bomb properly?"
Depends on the situation.
"6. Can I even hit that tiny sevas with my bombers or should I go for a bigger
target?"
If you question whether or not you can hit it, it is probably too small.
"7. Can my fighters win against the enemy?"
IF Y: Send fighters to fight fighters.
IF N: Don't send fighters into other fighters.

Really, the hardest part you said was 5. Really it was just common sense.

">Typical bb gameplay
1. Where should I send my scout?"
Who the **** cares? Either way you will forget to manage it.
If you DO remember to manage it, send it when blind and don't waste them all at
once.
"2. Should I go north or south?"
Wherever there are less BBs or less skilled BBs
"3. Should I aa that scout before he gets sight on me?"
No duh smart one.
"4. Should I sling?"
Doesn't matter to me.
"5. When should I rush?"
When you are clearly not going to easily die.
"6. Do I have more range than my enemy or not?"
Figure out what you outrange before you do battles.
"7. Is my enemy armored? Should I switch to ap?"
Is it a FG L2?
IF Y: Use AP
IF N: Most likely use HE.
Otherwise, just take a salvo and find out.
"8. Is there a sub near me?
IF Y: Well gg
IF N: Okay well continue then Before that"
IF Y: Run the other way smart one. Use OH and outrun it.
IF N: Just keep playing.
Again, most points are just common sense.

">Typical sub gameplay
1. LOOK FOR BB"
Also dive late for more air, but before major damage is done. Otherwise, that point is
correct.
"2. IS BB IN MY SIGHT RANGE?
IF Y: SHOOT TORPEDOES
IF N: GET HIM IN MY SIGHT RANGE"
Pretty much same for BB. Goes like this.
IS BB IN RANGE?
IF Y: FIRE
IF N: GET IN RANGE.
"3. IS BB DEAD?
IF Y: FIND ANOTHER BB
IF N: SHOOT MORE TORPEDOES"
IF Y: HOPE YOU DON'T RUN OUT OF AIR FINDING ANOTHER ONE.
IF N: HOPE YOU DON'T RUN OUT OF AIR TURNING AROUND TO SHOOT AGAIN.
"4. REPEAT AD INFINITUM"
SO WHAT'S SO DIFFERENT BETWEEN THIS AND OTHER SHIPS?

""(I'm guessing) it was probably only BBs vs CVs."

>implying that aa and other support ships do not exist"
I meant fighting was only done by them, as in CAs barely did any attack.

">Subs
>Require zero skill
>Point and shoot
>Might as well be just playing CoD
>Oh wait subs are even easier than that die to only firing on a 2 dimensional plane"

Less supports.
SS has to turn to turn weapons. A LOT less ammo than other ships. Has to get VERY
close to ships to attack (compared to BB/CV). Rarely last til end of battle. Usually run
out of air next to BB. Rarely kill CVs.
Why the **** would I play CoD? It sucks.

""The point of SS is to make it more exciting. Instead of almost all BBs able to defend
from all other classes, they are forced to be vulnerable to something."

That's giving BBs a hard counter without a hard counter to fight back with
And don't say asw because that doesn't reward enough to allow anyone to play it
properly"

Go cry some moar about less reward. You either have to live with low reward from
killing SS, or die from SS. Your choice. DC can kill SS in 1 salvo. HH can kill SS in 1
salvo. Where's the problem? It's balanced, BBs just choose not to use ASW and then
go cry about it. Choose between protection from planes/scouts or subs. Don't whine
because you didn't have defenses against the other type of attack.

""Subs were a part of WW2 and shouldn't be nerfed to oblivion."

>implying that torpedo splash doing just as much damage is not overpowered "
HH and DC are plenty. Splash from them is worse than torps. Again, don't whine
because you refuse to defend.

This is plenty for me to say. I really don't need to say much more to you.

@OP
I think that if this was added you would need to also need to nerf normal sonar a bit
just so BB players like Erad wouldn't cry. The ping distance should be more than the
current sonar range, but sonar without pinging would need to be plenty less to
motivate subs to ping.

In reality, this makes no sense. "pinging" of course is used to detect ships. But you are
already detecting the ships by revealing the fog of war around you. So the "ping" is in
really already done. What can be considered different is use of radar. The SD and SJ sets
that were used at first to detect planes and later detect ships would give more of the
effect that you are looking for... revealing the presence of the ship and maybe rough size
but not its identity. To do that, you'd have to give radar to everyone. Sorry, but overall
this suggestion just doesn't have enough merrit. Too complex for too little reward.

A high lvl sonarman may provide good vision, but the ping is meant to be used puraly as
a long range scouting tool. It proves especially useful when the enemy has air
superiority and your side is blind. It would basically light up a good portion of the enemy
BB line for 5 seconds... enough time to aim and fire a salvo