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  • General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 12:01

SylverXI
First of we have many players whinning about SS being overpowered or SS whinning
about ASW beign overpowered. I think that it's just not possible to balance things
correctly based on how things are right now.

That's why I think SDE should introduce new features.

Untill now, no nation has a difference in damage for HH, Depth charge or speed on
SS. SS are inmune against AP shells and have way too high submergence values.
Instead Shells inflict some sort of multiplied damage compared to the damage they
should really inflict.

If am not mistaken it's 400% bonus damage for 6" guns or smaller.
300% bonus damage for 7" guns to 9" guns and 200% for 10" guns or higher.

The reason behind this I think is to make it so smaller ships can also harm SS. So to
further make SS more fragile.

SS:
- Increase current bonus or multiplier damage for 6" guns or lower from
400%-->500%.

- Increase current bonus or multiplier damage for 7" to 9" guns from 300%-->400%.

- Increase current bonus or multiplier damage for 10" or higher from 200%-->300%.

- Introduce Periscope Mode for SS1, SS2, SS3 and SS4.
PRO:
- Surfaced Sight range.
- SS will not apear on mini-map.
- Sonarman is enabled.

CONTRA:
- Dive Mode speed.
- No direct dive from surface mode to dive mode.
- SS can be detected without sonar.
- SS receives 20%-25% shell damage + 200% splash damage(only for shells).
- Planesman will be dissabled(same as dive mode).

- Introduce SS5. SS5 beign around level 95 ± 5.
The new SS5 should have the same capabilities as what SS3(same air, torp damage,
more DP) are today. Same amount of Air but with a Snorkel capability. You should
also receive some sort of splash damage by shells or maybe a 15% damage from
shells while in Snorkel Mode.

- Intoduce SS6. SS6 beign level 120. Same capabilities as SS4(same air, torp
damage, more DP) but with a snorkel capability.

- Introduce Snorkel Mode for SS5 and SS6.
While in Snorkel Mode:
PRO:
- Air will not be consumed.
- Surfaced Sight range.
- SS will not apear on mini-map.
- Sonarman is enabled.

CONTRA:
- Dive Mode speed.
- No overheat speed.
- No direct dive from surface mode to dive mode.
- SS can be detected without sonar.
- SS receives 20%-25% shell damage + 200% splash damage(only for shells).
- Planesman will be dissabled(same as dive mode).

Rebalance SS3 and SS4. They need to be slighly nerfed to make space for SS5 and
SS6. things that come to mind:

- Decrease Torp damage of SS3 to that of a SS1/SS2.

- Change KM Flak guns to AA only guns.

- Introduce different speed caps for each national SS. Needs to be look into better
before SS5 and SS6 are introduced.
For example, the SS4's(between 40 and 35knots seems like a good compromise):
US--> cap 40 knots.
SN--> cap 39 knots.
KM--> cap 39 knots.
UK--> cap 38 knots.
MN--> cap 37 knots.
IJN--> cap 35 knots.

SS6 capabilities:
- Aircraft space for SS6's for scouts. TB space for IJN with 1 bomber run of 6 T2 IJN
bombers or 2 bomber run of 3 T2 IJN bombers.

ASW:
I believe we need to have the best Anti-SS nation and the worse Anti-SS nation. For
this I suggest we change the damage for certain HH and DC and reload and maybe
range aswell. But first I want to suggest general changes for all nations.

- Introduce T1, T2(Current HH), T3, T4 and PHH(already introduced) make it the T5.

Keep the same damage values for current HH:
For T1, it should be a quaddruple(4) barrel gun with HH. level 12.(use on DD1+)
For T2, it should be a pentuple(5) barrel gun with HH. level 25 ± 5.(use on DD3+)
For T3, it should be a hextuple(6) barrel gun with HH. level 40 ± 5.(use on CL3+)
For T4, it should be a pentuple(7) barrel gun with HH. level 65 ± 5.(use on CV3)
For T5 or PHH, it should be a pentuple(7) barrel gun with HH. level 85 ± 5.(use on
CV5+)

For People who are starting a new line can obviously use all types on DD1+.

Range changes
From best, to lowest range:
T5->T4->T3->T2->T1

- Introduce new reload times for HH.

T1--> 20 seconds
T2--> 30 seconds(change fom 60 seconds--> 30 seconds)
T3--> 45 seconds
T4--> 60 seconds
T5/PHH value change from 30 seconds-->60 seconds

Introduce New "specialized" ASW DD's (EDD's):
Pro's:
- Faster then DD3's.
- High max. displacement.
- Same support slot as ECL's.(People will have to choose between AA or ASW)
- T-slots in the back.(better for Depth Charges)

Contra:
- DD1 R-slot space.

Final words
This post is not intended to generate war against SS and BB players. Simply ideas I
have in mind that might improve this game we all like to play. If you have any
suggestion you wanna add, just post it here. If you don't like some of the things I
suggested, please don't hessitate to mention it in your post and eleborate on your
critic.

Most importantly, don't forget to recc ^^
  Index

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    05. 01. 2011 04:10

Baker654
Here are my suggestion for tier 5 submarines. The Japanese subs will be released with tier
6 submarines

US: Narwhal
DP: 21000
Armament: 4 Forward Torpedo tubes, 2 aft Torpedo Tubes, One 6" gun (Note the Real Narwhal
and her sister Nautilus had 2 6" guns)

UK: Triton Class
DP: 19600
Armament: 4 forward Torpedo Tubes (Note in Real Life the T class had 10 tubes that 8 faced
forwards) 2 aft torpedo tubes, One 4"gun

KM: Type IX C
DP: 20200
Armament: 4 forward torpedo tubes, 2 aft torpedo tubes, one 4.1" gun

MN: L'Aurore
DP: 20400
Armament: 4 forward torpedo tube, 2 aft torpedo tubes, one 4" gun

SN: Project 97 (improved S class)
DP: 20000
Armament: 4 forward torpedo tube, 2 aft torpedo tubes, one 4" gun

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    05. 01. 2011 02:20

ozzy0
all good and well but it will take alot of programing to inplement anny change in 1
ship what u are suggesting is changing 24 and ad 12 new
anny idea how mutch work that is
and what can/will go wrong in doing so

just ad type 5 ss for now give them a bigger crew space so a sub player can use its
crew at high lvl whith out taving to ghost it
no need for more airtime or a bigger torpload then the ss player has to choose
if hi take the type 4 and ghost its crew or take the 5 that will be a bigger thaget
whih the same layout as a 4 ( this means a bigger hittbox or somthing like that)

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 30. 2011 05:24

Baker654
I have a thread about tier 5 and 6 submarines. But for these to be intergrated into the
game, submarine are going to be rebalanced. Thats why I like alot of things on this page.
However there are few differences. First of all only the US, UK, KM, MN, SN have the tier
5 and 6 rankings. The Japanese on the other hand, can chose a branch between two special
submarines, the I-201 Sen Taka diesel sub and the I-400 Sen Toku Carrier sub

Features:

Class: I-201
DP: 22800
Speed: 29.17 km/h surfaced, 35 km/h submerged
Armament: Note the Real life I-201 had only 4 forwar torpedo tubes but I think we can
increase it
Special: The Sen Taka comes with a free snorkel which allows the submarine to recharge
while underwater, however when raised the snorkle reduces stealth capability allowing the
sub to be detected at a further distance.

Class: I-400
DP: 23600
Speed: 35 km/h surfaced, 12 km/h submerged
Armament: 8 forward torpedo tubes, 1 5.51" gun
Airspace/(Flight Deck): 1250/ (3)
Note: The I-400 can only launch recons and torpedo bombers

second thing is to increase the stand off range for submarine torpedos to detonate
allowing observant surface ship players to see the torpedo sooner and be able to avoid
most of the torpedos

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 21:10

SylverXI
The reason I suggested scout is because some of the SS5, or SS6 where already
made for certain nations. Like the surcouf had scout planes. The carrier IJN SS is also
1 of them(I don't recall which one though).

But, yeah, fitting an aircraft panel with the SS panel might complicate things.

Well, the main idea is to somewhat nerf the current SS3/SS4 and introduce new
stronger SS, the SS5 and SS6 with the SS5 with similar capabilities of what SS4 of
today can do. Another thing is to balance out the HH weopons. Also, I want to make
SS be real underwater ships. SS are easy kill on the surface. Players will be obligated
to not just rush in on the surface, but underwater and use snorkel to mantain air.

Am a SS player too, I always get to the BB line with 90% Air by surface. I can do this
because SS are small and ressistant. I say, we make it a real underwater ship in
which if you happen to get to enemy line, you will be obligated to dive and not stay
in snorkel mode. Also, rushing in on the surface will become a risk of getting
oneshotted(I suggested a far lower submergance value). In snorkel mode you could
also get suprised by ASW ships if you don't dive.

PHH in my opinion is just to much. I say make it a higher level. Can be used by
people who are leveling new crew with high level gunners and UK BB's or US BB's
which have crappy AA bateries anyway. Even CV's that have sonar capabilities and
huge space for bulge could use them.(One of the reasons I wouldn't mind making
CV's, SS worse enemy by making scouting easier)

PHH is currently better then CL guns.

PS. I don't really care much for koala44202 post since it only mentions things based
only on the advantages of introducing a Periscope and Snorkel Mode. Infact I also
play SS and I feel this will limit me more then help. You also forgot that I suggested
to make SS really really fragile. In other words, HH will do more harm against SS.

Besides, in periscope mode it's only logical for the sight range to increase. Compared
with submerged, periscope should have more vision. Maybe I can remove the speed
boost though. Also added that while in snorkel mode, you won't consume nor refill
air, and removed surface speed capabilities.

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 20:21

Ultra_Dog
I can't recommend this because it is overly complex and will never see the light of
day. However, there are several ideas repeated that are suggestable, including
Periscope and snorkel and battery setup.

Air consumption is directly related to underwater OH speed. If you can't cross no-
man's land in half a tank...game over.

NF specifically engineers that subs will die (expire) early. Otherwise, they would
have at least enough air for half a game. They're belief is that subs are too
menacing to the BBs. That is partially right and wrong.

A good crew and some crafty game play and you can porpoise for some air reloads,
hoping you either avoid detection or bombardment. That is only occasionally
successful for SS4 crews, SS1/2 are doomed and totally obsolete.

Big thumbs down on U-Flak suggestion and any use of a scout or plane for a sub in
this game is ridiculous and a waste of space.

Why would a sub care about scouting and getting their plane shot down? Scouting
is for BBs who need range visual support.

Also, why does my sub have a dumb aircraft control panel that is useless?

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 19:51

Humberto20
what about leave the PHH as they are and introduce a new premium weapon for submarine, hey
its fair to have premium items for both side, for asw and for submarines. lets introduce
the AR, which i have a suggestion go search it and then we can talk about it.or let the
submarines have the capability of earning good money since they dont earn that much
experience. i Have a level 83 repairman in my ss4 and he only gets 5k experience without
premium account and hey the difference between the sub and sailor is not that far either.

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 16:38

Lionel2
I give you that you thought out your post and laid out some arguments. However, I can't
reccomend this post. For starters, periscope mode allows submarines full vision as on
surface and full speed as if on surface. No and No. Submarines, by being under water, are
slower no matter what depth.... you are forcing the hull to push the water out of the way!
Also, you forget that in WWII, submarines relied on lookouts while on the surface, as a
means of detecting enemy ships. Quite unrealistic to think that one guy looking throw one
little tiny periscope just above the waves is going to see the same thing as 4 guys with
binoculars, especially considering that they are in a conning tower or in the rigging so
they can see OVER the waves and not INTO them. That makes a huge difference.

Snorkel mode is another issue. I don't see where this does anything but complicate things.
So now BBs can see the sub coming and the sub can stay under as long as it likes. BUT the
BBs can't do anything about it if they have ASW equipt.... no, no way by a long shot.
Imagine the balancing issues late in the game! The trade off you give (can't go into
critical dive) is irrelevent, because a lot of the BBs can't do a darn thing anyway. All
this does is make more issues.

The SS5/6 situation. Yes, I got it. SS drivers have issues trying to level when the
highest ship is a 70 something and they want to be rewarded. You suggestion is to make the
SS3 weaker and create some newer/ stronger DD... yet make HH weaker. Again, no way..... So
now you've got at the top end, bigger, stronger SS5/6 with torps that will blow ships out
of the water, as you haven't reduced their torpedo damage. Yet for the surface ships,
you're making the weapons needed to kill the subs weaker, although they get a DD that can
take a little bit more punishment or hold a slighter more effiecent crew... which doesn't
matter, as the subs have increased power.... no way, just no.

I think that there is nothing wrong with the current system. People complain about SS
torps or HH, frankly they are fine the way they are. If SS drivers want a higher level
ship so they can level, I think that is a more than fair request. Give them a bigger ship
that takes a little bit more of a beating and a higher level rating. Let things be too
much tinkering.

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 14:40

SylverXI
Flak guns are AA guns just like the pom poms. Infact it's nothing more then a KM
version of the pom poms. The flak guns never used HE in real life but where intended
to be used as AA weopons that kinda failed in the WWII.

I love the flak guns too with HE, but sadly if pom poms can't use HE, why should Flak
guns.

Regarding the speed, I kinda also agree, but not for the same reasons. The proximity
torps kinda compensates for the lack of tubes and US and SN also only have 4 frontal
tubes with no proximity and lower damage.(especially for SN with the lowest per
torp)

I think KM needs to keep it's speed only because of the fact that it only has 1
support spot for engineers making it have the lowest amount of overheat of all the
nations. But not because of tubes, KM SS4 is the best manueverable SS4 in-
game(same as MN) with proximity torps. Which is why I suggested 38 knots, same as
UK. I can compromise with 39 knots, same as SN.

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 14:26

koala44202
"US--> cap 40 knots.
SN--> cap 39 knots.
UK--> cap 38 knots.
KM--> cap 38 knots.
MN--> cap 37 knots.
IJN--> cap 35 knots."

KM should be able to keep speed here, plus it has the least amount of tubes. I agree
IJN should be slowest because of the 8 front tubes.

"- Introduce Periscope Mode. While in Periscope mode for SS1234 you will have the
same capabilities as beign surfaced for speed and sight range. But you will still
consume Air and be vulnerable to ASW attacks since you can't go into critical dive
directly. You should also receive some sort of splash damage by shells or maybe a
15% damage from shells."

No. Just no.

"- Change KM Flak guns to AA only guns."

Again, just no. Why would a sub be an AA ship? Why not just use pom poms for that?

"- Introduce snorkel capabilies for SS5 and SS6. While in Snorkel Mode you can't use
overheat speed and can be detected without sonar. It will also make you vulnerable
to ASW attacks since you can't go into critical dive directly."

Subs need to be dramatically slowed down with this. If anything, I think they should
gain a little more air than is used. The sub should also be visible if someone has the
view over the sub, but it shouldn't be on the map.

That's about all I'm willing to post now. No rec for now. I can't really think well from
my concussion, so I'm going to stop now before I post something stupid.

Oh and like said before thanks for not doing a complete NERF THEM ALL thread.

  • Re : General SS and ASW suggestions.

    04. 29. 2011 14:08

SylverXI
The PHH will still be superior. It will still outdamage the normal HH by a high amount.
Besides with level 95+ gunners the reload time with PHH will be around 8-12 seconds.
For HA assualts, people will still buy them to be able to 1-shot SS's in BB6.

Maybe a range increase for PHH VS the Normal HH's? or range decrease from T4 HH to
T1 HH(T1 having the lowest range)

Like when the PBB where introduced, they weren't removed after we al realized that
small copact level 60-65 ships with BB4 range is too much. PBB's where balanced and
are still beign bought.
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