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  • Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAWS/

    12. 03. 2014 10:46


Humberto20

If Iowa was reactivated back into active duty, and they were about face Heavy Missiles Cruisers, which of the following ships would have disadvatanges and advantages.

Peter the great equiped with

long range missiles ( Multiples )
Minigun
Anti Air defense


But Iowa equiped with

Long range shells
Laser  weapon system
Flak Guns ( If any )
or
Minigun 

with this stats i provided its probably obvious, but if we add their true abilities ( all of them ) + plus the new technology i ve added into Iowas, who do you think, would win? 

 

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 03. 2014 13:11


Sumi808

great point and cool idea, im looking forwad to hearing what others have to say or contribue on this topic :)

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 03. 2014 22:19


Faronth

A few thoughts on your intersting proposition:

Why handicap the Iowas by stipulating no long range missles??  The most current versions of the Iowas all had Tomahawk missle batteries aft in place of a few 5" turrets.  To date deployed navy laser batteries are a 1st generation defensive weapon (i think the first operational laser battery deplyed on a USN ship just this year) where as the Tomahawks can deal massive damage at long medium or short range,(even without the nuc warhead).  I presume you are talking about the ships using actuall deployed weapons systems rather then something from say Star Wars ect..

Beyond weapons stipulations from a pure suviability question I would say that the Iowa would outlast anything built since.  Not due to armor belts but more because of triple bootom hulls with massive flood/counter flood and damage control abilities built in to the overall ship design.  Modern warships concentrate on not getting hit to survive.  Great if you can manage it but history suggests if you can find a target you can eventually hit a target.  I think the more practical approach (as taken by the Iowa class design teams) is to design to expect to take damage and still have a good chance to survive.  Then again I don't design ships for a living I only read books by those that do/did.

In point of fact the type of armor on an Iowa would be defeated by a number of modern warheads  ie heat round, depleated uranium rounds etc...  Monlithic steel armor actually becomes a liability when struck by the right kind of round as the thick steel provides more mass to the jet of superheated vaporised metal pouring into the compartment struck.  Also with terminal pop up manuver warheads that would plunge straight down on the thinner deck armor you would have some serious issues to deal with.  Now if you had Chobbom armor al la M1 Abrams or Lepard II, or British MBT whos name escapes me at the moment that would be awhole different story. 

Regardless of the relevance of the ships in a modern naval setting they are truely an awe inspiring site to behold.  If you get the chance i highly recamend you visit one. 

Enjoy the Game


  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 04. 2014 02:42


chang792

I think an Ohio class nuclear submarine can one shot Iowa with a morden torpedo or cripple it to a point that the crew is forced to scuttle her. Hence why the subs in NF are perfectly balanced (not).

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 04. 2014 04:02


osn3179

Compare them is not correct. Let us then compare Iowa with sailing ship of the 18th century)))
Completely different in terms of technology and modern ships. Iowa has no chance against Peter in the case of missile combat. In the case of artillery duel Peter not even have time to enter the zone of their guns, the range of 38 and 23 kilometers respectively. Nowadays hardly possible artillery battle such large ships, for this reason, Iowa is used by the US Navy as a museum.

  • Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter Pan vs Captain Hook

    12. 04. 2014 06:43


fyyff

Originally Posted by Faronth

A few thoughts on your intersting proposition:

Why handicap the Iowas by stipulating no long range missles??  The most current versions of the Iowas all had Tomahawk missle batteries aft in place of a few 5" turrets.  To date deployed navy laser batteries are a 1st generation defensive weapon (i think the first operational laser battery deplyed on a USN ship just this year) where as the Tomahawks can deal massive damage at long medium or short range,(even without the nuc warhead).  I presume you are talking about the ships using actuall deployed weapons systems rather then something from say Star Wars ect..

Beyond weapons stipulations from a pure suviability question I would say that the Iowa would outlast anything built since.  Not due to armor belts but more because of triple bootom hulls with massive flood/counter flood and damage control abilities built in to the overall ship design.  Modern warships concentrate on not getting hit to survive.  Great if you can manage it but history suggests if you can find a target you can eventually hit a target.  I think the more practical approach (as taken by the Iowa class design teams) is to design to expect to take damage and still have a good chance to survive.  Then again I don't design ships for a living I only read books by those that do/did.

In point of fact the type of armor on an Iowa would be defeated by a number of modern warheads  ie heat round, depleated uranium rounds etc...  Monlithic steel armor actually becomes a liability when struck by the right kind of round as the thick steel provides more mass to the jet of superheated vaporised metal pouring into the compartment struck.  Also with terminal pop up manuver warheads that would plunge straight down on the thinner deck armor you would have some serious issues to deal with.  Now if you had Chobbom armor al la M1 Abrams or Lepard II, or British MBT whos name escapes me at the moment that would be awhole different story. 

Regardless of the relevance of the ships in a modern naval setting they are truely an awe inspiring site to behold.  If you get the chance i highly recamend you visit one. 

Enjoy the Game





agreed - what he said  ...



assume if iowa is reactivated = that includes a complete overhaul/re-fitting with modern stuff
iowa has many aa gun mounts .. for sure some will update to hellfire or anti-missle whatever
and as said elsewhere above who says iowa won't be missle capable ? or nuke engine upgraded
and at the very least i would expect it to have a full load of drones etc .. some choppers too
last time i recall .. iowa plans removing aft guns and adding heli-carrier hybrid - and missle batteries
so if re-activated = means a complete overhaul / re-fitting upgrade updates and modernization
in the end ... its  still a BB hull vs a CA hull ... iowa brings just more of everything to the battle


also assume the support ship compliments that go along with each of your suggested 'sides'



went looking ... check this bit ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_(BB-61)#Reactivation_.281982.E2.80.931984.29
(1982-1984) As part of President Ronald Reagan's and Secretary of the Navy John F. Lehman's effort to create an expanded 600-ship Navy, Iowa was reactivated and moved under tow to Avondale Shipyard near New Orleans, Louisiana, for refitting and equipment modernization in advance of her planned recommissioning. During the refit, Iowa had all of her remaining Oerlikon 20 mm and Bofors 40 mm anti-aircraft guns removed, due to their ineffectiveness against modern fighter jets and anti-ship missiles. Additionally, the two 5 in (130 mm) gun mounts located at mid-ship and in the aft on the port and starboard sides of the battleship were removed.
Over the next several months the battleship was upgraded with the most advanced weaponry available. Among the new weapons systems installed were four MK 141 quad cell launchers for 16 AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles, eight Armored Box Launcher mounts for 32 BGM-109 Tomahawk missiles, and a quartet of Phalanx Close-in weapon system Gatling guns for defense against enemy anti-ship missiles and enemy aircraft. Iowa was the first battleship to receive the RQ-2 Pioneer Unmanned Aerial Vehicle. She could carry up to eight of the remotely controlled drones, which replaced the helicopters previously used to spot for her nine 16 inch (410 mm)/50 cal Mark 7 guns.  Also included in her modernization were upgrades to radar and fire-control systems for her guns and missiles, and improved electronic warfare capabilities. Armed as such, Iowa was formally recommissioned on 28 April 1984, ahead of schedule, within her budget at a cost of $500 million. In order to expedite the schedule, many necessary repairs to Iowa's engines and guns were not completed.

===

remember - this was back in 1982 ... re-fit to the 2020's and this time do the engines and such
new modern navy nuclear engines .. lightened by heavy gun/ammo removal with a sturdy big hull
can you say speed ho'ing ? ... or as i said above, just more of everything .. and then some

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 04. 2014 08:16


Humberto20

Well, if i have long range turrets, why would i need Missiles? If peter the Great has anti Air defenses, i would equip my ship with Anti air defenses as well. Knowing Peter The Great is a Missiles whore. Can launch multiple misiles , so in my opinion i took the misiles capabilities off, to replace it with LAWS and Mini Guns, and let the shells hit the ship .**If any, i would leave 1-2 Spots for misiles , but the majority of seondary slots, would be anti air.**

Now, talking subs vs bb. then, we add Escorts ships with Sonar capabilities with Anti subs capabilities, Destroyers sends out a Scout/Helicopter that tracks the sub and keep it busy. Either gets hits. destroyed or goes away.

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 04. 2014 08:19


Humberto20

Originally Posted by fyyff

Originally Posted by Faronth

A few thoughts on your intersting proposition:

Why handicap the Iowas by stipulating no long range missles??  The most current versions of the Iowas all had Tomahawk missle batteries aft in place of a few 5" turrets.  To date deployed navy laser batteries are a 1st generation defensive weapon (i think the first operational laser battery deplyed on a USN ship just this year) where as the Tomahawks can deal massive damage at long medium or short range,(even without the nuc warhead).  I presume you are talking about the ships using actuall deployed weapons systems rather then something from say Star Wars ect..

Beyond weapons stipulations from a pure suviability question I would say that the Iowa would outlast anything built since.  Not due to armor belts but more because of triple bootom hulls with massive flood/counter flood and damage control abilities built in to the overall ship design.  Modern warships concentrate on not getting hit to survive.  Great if you can manage it but history suggests if you can find a target you can eventually hit a target.  I think the more practical approach (as taken by the Iowa class design teams) is to design to expect to take damage and still have a good chance to survive.  Then again I don't design ships for a living I only read books by those that do/did.

In point of fact the type of armor on an Iowa would be defeated by a number of modern warheads  ie heat round, depleated uranium rounds etc...  Monlithic steel armor actually becomes a liability when struck by the right kind of round as the thick steel provides more mass to the jet of superheated vaporised metal pouring into the compartment struck.  Also with terminal pop up manuver warheads that would plunge straight down on the thinner deck armor you would have some serious issues to deal with.  Now if you had Chobbom armor al la M1 Abrams or Lepard II, or British MBT whos name escapes me at the moment that would be awhole different story. 

Regardless of the relevance of the ships in a modern naval setting they are truely an awe inspiring site to behold.  If you get the chance i highly recamend you visit one. 

Enjoy the Game





agreed - what he said  ...



assume if iowa is reactivated = that includes a complete overhaul/re-fitting with modern stuff
iowa has many aa gun mounts .. for sure some will update to hellfire or anti-missle whatever
and as said elsewhere above who says iowa won't be missle capable ? or nuke engine upgraded
and at the very least i would expect it to have a full load of drones etc .. some choppers too
last time i recall .. iowa plans removing aft guns and adding heli-carrier hybrid - and missle batteries
so if re-activated = means a complete overhaul / re-fitting upgrade updates and modernization
in the end ... its  still a BB hull vs a CA hull ... iowa brings just more of everything to the battle


also assume the support ship compliments that go along with each of your suggested 'sides'



went looking ... check this bit ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_(BB-61)#Reactivation_.281982.E2.80.931984.29
(1982-1984) As part of President Ronald Reagan's and Secretary of the Navy John F. Lehman's effort to create an expanded 600-ship Navy, Iowa was reactivated and moved under tow to Avondale Shipyard near New Orleans, Louisiana, for refitting and equipment modernization in advance of her planned recommissioning. During the refit, Iowa had all of her remaining Oerlikon 20 mm and Bofors 40 mm anti-aircraft guns removed, due to their ineffectiveness against modern fighter jets and anti-ship missiles. Additionally, the two 5 in (130 mm) gun mounts located at mid-ship and in the aft on the port and starboard sides of the battleship were removed.
Over the next several months the battleship was upgraded with the most advanced weaponry available. Among the new weapons systems installed were four MK 141 quad cell launchers for 16 AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles, eight Armored Box Launcher mounts for 32 BGM-109 Tomahawk missiles, and a quartet of Phalanx Close-in weapon system Gatling guns for defense against enemy anti-ship missiles and enemy aircraft. Iowa was the first battleship to receive the RQ-2 Pioneer Unmanned Aerial Vehicle. She could carry up to eight of the remotely controlled drones, which replaced the helicopters previously used to spot for her nine 16 inch (410 mm)/50 cal Mark 7 guns.  Also included in her modernization were upgrades to radar and fire-control systems for her guns and missiles, and improved electronic warfare capabilities. Armed as such, Iowa was formally recommissioned on 28 April 1984, ahead of schedule, within her budget at a cost of $500 million. In order to expedite the schedule, many necessary repairs to Iowa's engines and guns were not completed.

===

remember - this was back in 1982 ... re-fit to the 2020's and this time do the engines and such
new modern navy nuclear engines .. lightened by heavy gun/ammo removal with a sturdy big hull
can you say speed ho'ing ? ... or as i said above, just more of everything .. and then some




BUT

NORFOLK (NNS) -- Navy Expeditionary Combat Command (NECC) adopted a space aboard the decommissioned Iowa-class battleship USS Wisconsin (BB-64) at the Nauticus National Maritime Center in Norfolk, April 26. 

NECC applied to adopt a space aboard the battleship through the Restore BB-64 program and was assigned the aft enlisted crews mess, where volunteers from the command will clean, paint and repair the area regularly. 

Restore BB-64 is an adopt-a-space group volunteer program that invited military commands, civic leagues, businesses, schools, churches, local service groups and youth organizations to help restore and maintain the Battleship Wisconsin. 

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 04. 2014 09:57


jacopo

it wouldnt be a fair fight based simply on technology advancements. iowa class battleships were great for the cold war, but  today they would get killed. you speak of refitting the iowas and bringing them up to date with current technology. from a financial standpoint, you would be better off building a new ship from the ground up, based on iowas design. armor is a liability for reasons already mentioned, therefore you need speed and a lot of defensive tech. as much as i would love to see the dawn of a new bb age, but it will sadly never happen. the navy seems to side with the belief of having multiple smaller destroyers with the same capabilities as a battleship. destroyers are faster, more agile, and easier to produce. they are also a lot smaller target.

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 04. 2014 10:15


Humberto20

Originally Posted by jacopo

it wouldnt be a fair fight based simply on technology advancements. iowa class battleships were great for the cold war, but  today they would get killed. you speak of refitting the iowas and bringing them up to date with current technology. from a financial standpoint, you would be better off building a new ship from the ground up, based on iowas design. armor is a liability for reasons already mentioned, therefore you need speed and a lot of defensive tech. as much as i would love to see the dawn of a new bb age, but it will sadly never happen. the navy seems to side with the belief of having multiple smaller destroyers with the same capabilities as a battleship. destroyers are faster, more agile, and easier to produce. they are also a lot smaller target.




Accoding to the congress, they will be only used in National Emergencies and not many things can be modified and stay original as much as possible. But, i would like to see MOntana Class Battleship.

  • Re : Heavy Missile Cruiser Peter the Great vs Iowa Class Battleship equipped with LAW...

    12. 04. 2014 23:45


Faronth

Originally Posted by chang792

I think an Ohio class nuclear submarine can one shot Iowa with a morden torpedo or cripple it to a point that the crew is forced to scuttle her. Hence why the subs in NF are perfectly balanced (not).



Ther is some intersting reading available on the Iowa class design with regards to torpedo defense.  The original design survivability study concluded that to sink an Iowa class battle ship with torpedoes it would have to be struck by 5 torps at rouphly the same time and evenly spaced at 60' along one side to flood enouph of the voids (appx 360') in the hull to place the ship in jepardy.  That is assuming no damage control counter flooding effort by the crew.  The ship design has triple void/bulkhead side protection (that is independent of the main armor belt) in addtion to the triple bottom hull Design features not found in more modern ships.  I am guessing the Peter the Great is not equiped with these features but in truth I have not studied the design of that hull.

Subsequent review for the 80's refit found that to the Iowa's were still amoung the most surviable ships afloat.  I would imagine that would be even more true with modern ASW and Air defense.  It is worth pointing out though that no Iowa class BB ever took a torp hit nor hit from a BB main battery to see the actuall effects. Although a Zero or two tried to "land" on them from time to time.

On another note one does not use an Ohio class sub to go after a capitol ship.  They are way to valuable.  The torps on an Ohio are a secondary defensive measure against attack subs and ASW ships.  The primary defense is the ability to hide from everything.  They are supposed to just dissapear and only show up at the end of the world as we know it or at the end of their deployment.  Fortunatly for all of us only the latter has occured.  Now if you had an LA class attack sub or better yet the Virginia... the odds for success would definitly improve. 

If anyone is intertested in the topic of the Iowa's the book, Iowa Class Battleships by Robert Sumrall (1988, Printed by Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, MD) is a good read.

Enjoy the Game

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