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  • Your thoughts on "Whale Wars"

    08. 03. 2009 14:24

Valefar
I recently argued with my GF concerning the tactics of the Sea Shepard crew of "Whale
Wars" on Animal Planet. Seeing as many of us are naval enthusiasts, I though I'd bring the
discussion here.

http://animal.discovery.com/tv/whale-wars/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_Wars

Synopsis: this series follows the crew of the Steve Irwin (SI), a ship who is crewed and
funded by the non-profit organization Sea Shepards. The SI (flying a Dutch flag)
interferes with Japanese boats off the coast of Antarctica as they harvest whales. The
Japanese maintain that they are researching sustainably whaling techniques, while the Sea
Shepards argue that it is in direct violation of International Law and barbaric.

I am pretty well-read concerning the international whaling laws, the Japanese research
efforts, the Sea Shepards' arguments against the Japanese, the history of Paul Watson (the
SI captain and Sea Shepard leader), but only have a limited knowledge of the show (I just
watched 3 episodes). The organization is based out of a town I used to live in, and I am
familiar with the political issues.

My questions are these:
-who do you support and why?
-is this show beneficial or detrimental to either organization involved?
-is there a better way to affect whale harvesting, regardless of motive?
-any other general thoughts by you?
-am I wasting my time here, and should I be paying attention to the conference call I am on?

I have my own opinions, and will state them once the thread gets going (I tried to be as
unbiased as possible in my descriptions). Since the original argument was with my GF, I
already started off as being wrong :P
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  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 13:54

Kapusta
But then again, I could imagine something like in the James Bond films happening. A
stealth q-boat is engaged by a USN destroyer, which is promptly sunk by gunfire/
missiles/torpedoes. How you would get your hands on that stuff, I have no idea.

Oh, and isn't the point of a Q-boat so that others can't tell that you're a Q-boat?
You'd look just like an rdinary merchant ship. And if they board your ship, blow them
up while they're unsuspecting.

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 13:45

Ninjafroggie
Yes, they would. If, for example, the japanese really did shoot and kill paul watson,
it would be the legal equivalent of murdering paul watson on dutch soil, and murder
charges would be filed. From there it becomes a diplomatic excercise as I am unsure
of the extradition treaty situation between the dutch and the japanese. Also,
charges would likely be filed in the US as well due to paul watson's citizenship. IF
SS didnt have that registry flag, then no charges could be filed, its just the way the
law is.

And if you took out an unregistered Q boat, you would be considered a pirate even if
you did not engage in piracy. It would be prefectly legal for any warship in the world
to sink you on the high seas at the captain's discretion alone, he would need no
higher authority. However, any ship you fired upon would be a criminal/pirate act.

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 13:41

Kapusta
It'd probably be fun to run a WWII era Q boat in international waters...without a
flag...hehehe...so what would happen if the Japanese killed the SS? Would the
Dutch government have to do something about it?

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 13:36

Ninjafroggie
Basically, when you have a registry flag, you sail under the protection of that
government, but are required to abide by the rules and regulations set forth by that
government, or they will revoke your registry. This is why halfway through the
currently airing season, sea sheppard had to stop making stink bomb attacks from
the deck of the steve irwin when the dutch registry ordered them to stop. Different
laws concerning fishing, freight tarrifs, taxes, etc exist from country to country...this
is why you see cargo ships registered to nairobi, kenya and malayasia...places
where it is cheaper to keep the ship registered than say the us for example, which
requires a great many things for the crew such as certified safety training and
certain types of insurance. Also, for arrest purposes a boat at sea in international
waters is considered to be the nation whos flag it flies...theres an episode of CSI
miami where the suspect has diplomatic immunity in the US, but horatio is able to
get them in jail anyway when they go fishing because their boat is registered in
bahrain and he can prove tax evasion to the bahranian police. As for boarding
actions, im unsure of the legality of this outside of national waters, but in territorial
waters a nation's coast gaurd or navy can intercept any vessel and board, search,
and inspect it for just about any reason, even just the "official safety inspection" is
enough justification. In international waters I'm fairly certain boarding another ship
is illegal, but the japanese didnt press charges for piracy or anything last year when
they boarded the yushin maru no. 2, and im not sure why. 3 days later they were
handed over to an australian negotiating team and returned to their own boat. I
believe theres got to be a legal loophole that distinguishes boarding illegally, ie
stowaway, from piracy, because piracy laws are pretty draconian, especially in
europe where such laws date back to the late 1600s. I do know that it is important
to have a registry flag because under international maritime law, an un-registered
ship has no protection other than itself, and therefore you can board them, steal
their cargo, rape and kill the crew, set the ship on fire and then sink it, all without
breaking any laws, provided youre in international waters at the time, of course.
Consequently, if sea sheppard were to lose their registry, the japanese would have
free license to attack the steve irwin with intent to kill.

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 12:57

Valefar
"The biggest legal challenge they face is to keep their registry flag. "

Admittedly, this is the part of the equation I know little about: who can be arrested,
prosecuted, detained, etc.

Thanks for the links :)

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 12:53

Ninjafroggie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMG8T6Nc1gE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PwKmOZm1mA

Their actions are of questionable legality, but those they oppose are on
questionalbe legal ground to begin with, so no government other than japan would
even attempt to prosecute them. The biggest legal challenge they face is to keep
their registry flag.

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 12:39

Valefar
"As for the sea shepards, their thoughts are good, but their actions are not. If they
continue with their actions, they will eventually hurt the movement to conserve whale
populations, "

My thoughts exactly.

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 12:33

whtskip
The sustainability of the world's oceans including all forms of marine life is a stake in
the next few years. Regulated fishing has slowed the decline of fish stocks in certain
waters. Can the world successfully hunt whales sustainably?

As for the sea shepards, their thoughts are good, but their actions are not. If they
continue with their actions, they will eventually hurt the movement to conserve whale
populations,

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 11:59

Valefar
"yes vale, but the SS arent breaking any laws either."

Isn't forcibly boarding another vessel without permission illegal? Isn't throwing items
from one vessel to another illegal (both parties guilty of this, though SS instigated)?
Isn't ramming another vessel illegal (although both sides contend it was the others
fault)? I'm not a maritime expect, but I'm pretty sure laws are being broken by both
sides, thought the SS seem to be the instigators.

"The effect of shutting down whaling for 6 days is a direct hit to profitability. "

Absolutely correct. Running a fleet of that size, with that number of ships, with that
size of crews has to be enormously expensive. Even a few hours of lost productivity would
cause large profit loss.

"According to sea sheppard, for the last 3 years the whalers have come up short of
their quota by signifigant margins, although theres no information from the japanese
side to confirm or debunk if the whaling fleet is profitable or not as it is
officially "research" and not a commercial enterprise. "

The leader of the SS has also been know falsify claims, including claiming he was shot by
Japanese whalers, so I am wary of what is posted on their site. Unfortunately, I am not
aware of any Japanese whaling sites to find another (also likely biased) site to see
another view. As is par, the actual truth of the impacts of their actions will likely
remain unknown.

  • Re : Your thoughts on

    08. 04. 2009 11:49

Ninjafroggie
yes vale, but the SS arent breaking any laws either.

The effect of shutting down whaling for 6 days is a direct hit to profitability. Think
about it, thats 6 days youre burning fuel, consuming food, wear and tearing the
ship, and paying crew while not generating any income...the whales are only in this
area for limited parts of the year, and the southern oceans whale sanctuary is the
only one that has this loophole the japanese can exploit. So, as much of that time
that SS can prevent the whalers making money means they have that much less
likelyhood of being able to kill enough whales to make a profit for the trip.

According to sea sheppard, for the last 3 years the whalers have come up short of
their quota by signifigant margins, although theres no information from the japanese
side to confirm or debunk if the whaling fleet is profitable or not as it is
officially "research" and not a commercial enterprise.