being able to reach the torp cap easily renders +2 bonus of ijn pretty useles...

definately nerf.

It's the exact same with BBs. 1 BB COULD set back the whole line. Why doesn't it?
EVERYONE (almost) has anti surface weapons. Why can 1 SS set the line back? Barely
anyone caries ASW. There's your problem. The issue isn't the SS. The issue is everyone
else.

I guess nobody whines about BBs because everyone has one.

And I guess the problem with subs is that they cause such a commotion for such a low
level ship. One sub able to push back an entire BB line.

Moltke is a great AA ship. SS is a good stealth killer. BB is good damage. CV is long
distance. Where's the huge problem here?

The reason we say you whine is because you create a thread about nerfing subs,
just like EVERYONE else. They aren't OP, people just refuse to do anything to counter
them. SS are balanced, if not even underpowered. Think about it. Just a few HH
murder a sub. Not nearly the same with a BB.

Here's another thought. How many BBs are around near the end of the game? How
many SS? Exactly.

More times than not, you get killed by another BB. WHY DON'T PEOPLE EVER WHINE
ABOUT THAT??????????? Why is it that they ALWAYS blame the one ship class that
they can't see even if it doesn't kill that often?

Here's a thread I think the mods should lock. Suggested before. Only 1 rec out of all
of this. People obviously don't want this right now and it isn't a very constructive
conversation.

Why do you say I'm whining? I'm just jealous that these subs can sink 10 ships while
I'm lucky to damage a few ships in my Moltke without getting blown to bits by BB
salvos. Maybe if my Moltke could submerge for 3 minutes and shoot half a dozen torps
every 5 seconds I'd rack up half a teams worth of kills too

Reload time is about right. On IJN SS4, about the time my first salvo explodes (at fast
speed) my reload is done. I think this is about perfect. In that time, there is plenty
of time for ships to run.

I can only do four full salvos in a game and I am slower than most ships. Really, if
ships are around for 3 full salvos or they haven't attacked me with HHs, then they deserve
to die for playing so STUPID. In reality this is the fact of anyone who wants to nerf
subs -- they just are plain lazy or dumb. Subs are the EASIEST ship in the game to
counter, but the fact is few people are willing to pay the cost. They would rather take
the chance they don't have to deal with them so every tenth game or so, they are surprised
and sunk. That 10% makes them feel that subs are so unfair. It is easier to blame
someone else than consider your own faults.

Sure, torps are a 2 dimensional weapon -- but torpedos have six HUMONGOUS limitations to
shells. How many shells are duds? How many guns require the whole ship to turn to aim?
How many shells do ships really dodge? How many guns fire shorter than a torpedo? How
many guns reload slower than a sub? How many ships can only carry 35 shells?
I love playing sub, but curse the ease of which a BBs can fire salvo after salvo a half
of board away. The strength of torpedo hits and splash damage are a good compromise to
the many limitations. Add in the vulnerability of SS on the surface and you really don't
have any comparison. After all, how many high level SS really survive until the end of
the game -- compare that to CVs and BBs

Stop whining and play the game in its fullest.

LOL nice one.

"...Everyone around me died from sprayed torps that exploded all over the place
after expiring or set off by proximity activation. Then the sub proceeded to fire 3
salvos into a BB5 and sink it. ..By the time the sub was detected, there was no
getting away from it. I only lived because I'm a wuss that ran like hell and
abandoned everyone the moment I saw a torp appear "

I remember that game. Some wussy BB ran off. I didn't get him.

Did those BBs pay ANY attention to their surroundings and actually TRY to avoid? The
only time I have huge success in a sub is if there's a completely ignorant BB I'm
shooting.