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  • A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singapore?

    01. 25. 2013 20:02


Celeste_Morn

I have been wondering if the US Navy decided to attach the USS Colorado BB45,USS New Mexico BB40 to Force Z,would they have been picking targets as well if they accompanied the Repulse and the Prince of Wales,would the US Battleships accompanying Force Z be a target for the IJN and IJA land based bombers and torpedo bombers as well?

 

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 25. 2013 22:37


EricIdle

The problem with Force Z was not the UK BBs, it was the lack of air cover.

So the US BBs would have been sunk as well...

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 25. 2013 22:37


angus725

I'd expect them to get sunk or badly damaged considering Pearl Harbor, Force Z, Bismarck's poor rudder, half the Italian Navy, Coral Sea, Midway, etc etc

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 25. 2013 23:51


FuriCuri

People used to think that naval power was all about having the largest battleships.It was only in WW2 in the pacific that people learned that Carrier based planes could sink even the strongest battleship over 200 miles away.Thats why during the war battleships/Cruisers/Ect where used to support/protect allied Carriers.A battleship can be destroyed by a single bomb from a plane without support so without air cover they would have all been sunk.

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 28. 2013 12:22


myg0t1

the AA capability of the US BBs would have given them a significant advantage. In the end tho, they most likely would have been sunk

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 28. 2013 13:24


FuriCuri

Originally Posted by myg0t1

the AA capability of the US BBs would have given them a significant advantage. In the end tho, they most likely would have been sunk


AA was only effective when employed fleetwide (Destroyers and Cruisers would be stationed in a circle around a ship and screen enemy fighters/bombers if a bomber managed to get close enough for the BB to use AA then odds are its going to get hit.

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 29. 2013 14:22


myg0t1

Originally Posted by FuriCuri

Originally Posted by myg0t1

the AA capability of the US BBs would have given them a significant advantage. In the end tho, they most likely would have been sunk


AA was only effective when employed fleetwide (Destroyers and Cruisers would be stationed in a circle around a ship and screen enemy fighters/bombers if a bomber managed to get close enough for the BB to use AA then odds are its going to get hit.

ahhh so the iowas werent sent on CV escort duty for their massive AA batteries? Good to know. As i recall there was only a single kamikaze attack on an iowa class BB which didnt even scratch the paint....might have put a dent in her but alas....the DDs and cruisers did play an effective role in AA defense, however a BB's AA battery packs the same firepower in 1 ship than a 3 DD escort...just sayin.

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 29. 2013 16:20


DemFuhrer

Originally Posted by FuriCuri

People used to think that naval power was all about having the largest battleships.It was only in WW2 in the pacific that people learned that Carrier based planes could sink even the strongest battleship over 200 miles away.Thats why during the war battleships/Cruisers/Ect where used to support/protect allied Carriers.A battleship can be destroyed by a single bomb from a plane without support so without air cover they would have all been sunk.



wow single bomb sink a BB?? NOT in this game though.....to sink an armor whore lion II with the incredibly weak KM bombs, you need at least 3 waves of 10-bomber squadron, without missing a single bomb, and those 3 waves of bombings must be within 20 seconds so that armor whore lion won't have time to repair!!!

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 29. 2013 18:16


FuriCuri

Originally Posted by DemFuhrer

Originally Posted by FuriCuri

People used to think that naval power was all about having the largest battleships.It was only in WW2 in the pacific that people learned that Carrier based planes could sink even the strongest battleship over 200 miles away.Thats why during the war battleships/Cruisers/Ect where used to support/protect allied Carriers.A battleship can be destroyed by a single bomb from a plane without support so without air cover they would have all been sunk.



wow single bomb sink a BB?? NOT in this game though.....to sink an armor whore lion II with the incredibly weak KM bombs, you need at least 3 waves of 10-bomber squadron, without missing a single bomb, and those 3 waves of bombings must be within 20 seconds so that armor whore lion won't have time to repair!!!

Umm The Arizona was taken out by a single bomb to its magizine..the Taiho was taken out by a single torp so yea it has happened alot of times...not to mention that they could use machine gun fire to strafe the deck of battleships killing the AA and deck crew.Most of the AA gunners on the Yamato where killed by machinegun fire from planes which allowed DBs/TBs to sink her.

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 29. 2013 23:58


EricIdle

Kamikaze attacks were NEVER really effective, irrespective of the AA capabilities of the target attacked.

Most AA in WW2 wasn't very effective either. Well trained pilots on a bombing dive would have been able to sink any BB without air cover, even your beloved Iowas (that I like as well).

It was carriers and logistics deciding the Pacific, not BBs.

 

Get over it. Enjoy Navyfield which is a game with WW1 logic (big guns), but with WW2 sprites. :)

  • Re : A what if,what would happen if US Battleships were attached to Force Z in Singap...

    01. 30. 2013 00:32


Faronth

Just to put a few more facts/observations in play after reading some of the comments on this thread.  (a long read I know but hopefully enjoyable to those that do get through it)

 

AA on US Battleships (and every other battleship) was pathetic early in the war.   Most just did not fully understand the threat from aerial bombs.  There were exceptions. In the mid-war period US aviator Billy Mitchell sank a WWI surrendered German BB in an airpower demonstration for US brass with a large aerial bomb.  The Navy Brass was so upset after having claimed it would be impossible to sink the BB from the air they literally pulled stings to have him court marshaled for it because they deemed he used to large a bomb! 

 

Also note that RN Swordfish literally made of wood and cloth powered by a hamster wheel put the deadly rudder strike on the brand new Bismark not to mention what they did earlier in the war at the Italian port of Toranto (which Admiral Yamato used as the basis for the later Pearl Harbor attack).  The fact that the then modern Bismark could not defeat a few RN Swordfish makes the point. Early war AA was woefully inadequate for the threat.

 

It was not until later in the war that the older US battle fleets were equipped with massive AA batteries. Event the Iowa initial AA designs and configurations were nowhere near what they would be come in the later days of the war.  The addition of the any of the older US BBs would just have been more target practice for the highly trained and capable Japanese pilots that sank POW and Repulse.  FYI a British carrier was scheduled to go with them for air cover but was run aground and tuned back for repairs.  The BB’s went anyway.  A costly mistake.

 

Approaching an Iowa class BB in a plane late ’44 or ’45 was just a just another means of killing your self. Depending on the exact ship they had either 19 or 20 quad mount 40mm Boffers AA (each capable of ~ 140 rds/min, ~ 65 20mm Orklan stations and numerous .50 cal. Not to mention the ten 5” turrets that were capable of being fire controlled in unison to take out any thing in the sky.  That is what made the secondary battery  so effective in the AA role. 

 

As for a single bomb taking out a BB, yes the Arizona was hit in a forward magazine and exploded but she was actually hit by several bombs that were in large part defeated by armor.  One actually bounced of a turret before the fatal blow was struck.  The bombs used were actually an adaptation of 14” armor piercing battleship shells specially designed for the Pearl Harbor attack.

 

The older battleships did not have good enough fire control to consistently hit anything at the longer ranges their main batteries could shoot thus they would try and engage at (relatively) closer ranges.  At closer ranges deck armor becomes less important as the shells coming in are not the deadly plunging fire.  They tend to hit the sides hence heavy side armor belts and turret armor.  Even their relatively week deck armor could bounce a shell coming in at such low angles. Thus the older BB’s were exceptional venerable to aerial attack as their designers did not perceive and design for the threat.

 

I would argue that the more modern BB’s such as the Yamato and Musashi (sp?) and Iowas would be near impossible to take out with a single bomb.  It actually took a total of 27 bombs and torpedoes to sink the Yamato over a period of several hours, (the break out was 17 bombs and 10 torpedoes).  Her sister ship who suffered the same fate earlier in the war took similar punishment before she went down.  The compartmentalization and damage control of the later ships was much better then the earlier designs. 

 

The designers of the Iowa class estimated it would take 6 near simultaneous evenly spaced torpedo hits along one side of the Iowa class to produce a 90% chance of sinking (capsizing) her.  That is with out immediate damage control and counter flooding ect. that would certainly have been employed.  The design teams actually altered the design and layout of the engine rooms to make them smaller overall spaces to mitigate the potential threat from a torp damage flooding an engine space(s).  A single torpedo would have been more of a nuisance (provided it did not

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