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Let the Test Team Balance Subs
09. 01. 2011 16:41
 Recommend : 24
ljsevern
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As above. Do not release SS5's until SS Balance by the Test Team
Otherwise, players will flat out refuse to play and the game will die within months.
SS4's are already competitive in HA game modes (which have nearly all 120 ships apart from Submarines).
Any further buff is just going to further alienate all non submarine ships;
The SS's, while being counters to BB's, shouldn't still be an auto win.
They should have their levels adjusted for their tier.
They should have their power adjusted for their tier.
They should have their playstyle changed from Glass Orbital Cannons to a skill based hit and run ship, designed to harass the enemy from behind their lines.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 08. 2011 14:39
aingeal
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Originally Posted by Humberto20
Originally Posted by ljsevern
Originally Posted by Humberto20
Originally Posted by ljsevern
Originally Posted by woodskier
subs face PHH, DC, shells...torps .....other subs.... ..CL with sonar ...DD's FF....CV,s with sonar....there more than enough ASW to wipe out the subs. Subs are allways, allways out numbered by the BB's, How would like that to be reversed for a while?
Subs air has been nerfed, speed has been nerfed dive time nerfed...meanwhile ASW weapons all Buffed.
Look at the PHH....thier only Hedge Hogs in name only...their range is that of shell fire, not HH.
PHH should be removed, we have all said that, please read posts. Second of all, Submarines have been proven to have enough time to avoid HH with crit dive.
The Air is not a problem, they air is fine. But, something that will be make Air useless on critical dive is, if you are running out of Soft defence. The critical dive damage is high yes, but if running out of soft defence, its same as dangerous as having a full salvo of PHH above you on normal dive.
One could argue that you shouldn't let yourself be in that situation. However, that is the reason I thought of the idea of slow movement and no damage crit dive (But takes up more air).
They are expecting me to be the almighty to do everything, but im not inmortal. If i get double, triple team on me,and launching me PHH and torps, there is no way i can survive by not critical diving. The Idea Sounds Good, but what about, adding Batteries, that only gives you 25% of extra air, but is limited to 30 seconds to 1 minute to re use another one? each package of 25-50 batteries?
You should edit your post so your addition appears better, as you've put it in a quote. Do you agree with me a BB that finds itself in range of 3 other BBs unless they are really stupid, is dead? Do you agree with me a CV sending its plane somewhere 3 AA whores are as little chance of seeing one coming back? Then would you also agree an SS that failed to use the proposed tool to stay undetected and ends up in the middle of 3 ASW/SS should have little chance also? Also, 25% air would mean 1 minutes around if you've read what is pretty much the consensus where air changes are concerned. I don't like the idea, altough I can understand where its coming from. Conditions that would make it acceptable in my opinion : -Subs can no longer use smokes -Reload of it is on the range of 10 minutes. Basically, with your proposal, a sub could stay underwater undefinitely or nearly. Just use a battery every minutes or so. The air cost for 1 minute might be what? 15 sec? As an emergency measure maybe. You realize you are going to be in deep shit if you surface where you are, you use that thing to pull a retreat. For the record, since I am seeing the argument "but smokes only take a min of rld!!!" coming, smokes do not give any immunity to BBs, their hitbox are also easier to shot in smokes than an SS, and their muzzle flash still show. And even with that, I'm heavily in favor of extended reload times for smokes (5 minutes) or a limited ammount per games (2 or 3)
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 08. 2011 14:46
aingeal
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Originally Posted by RedNemo
Originally Posted by aingeal
As I said many times, SS balancing will be the hardest challenge I've seen in NF.
I'm afraid 3 lines thrown out there won't cut it, no matter how much some people fail to understand it, and just keep denouncing a "nerf bat" rather than add to the debate.
If you don't feel like reading tons of text with tons of ideas, thats ok. Avoid discussing the ideas tough, since you didnt take the time to understand where it came from and the reason behind it.
I've seen ideas I didnt like, but found the motivation behind it interesting, and I then take it into account in my owns.
? i never said i wasnt interessed in reading long posts. Its just that i have not the technicall knowledge to go further than just give an idea, i have no idea in what manner the game can be rewritten. The only thing i can do is propose an idea (with less technical possible) look at how people react, then resume what came out of discussion an repropose a variation of what first presented. I am not a real skilled player (never been higher than a BB4) but i can observe the sub warfare and what i see its or you modify radically the subs (with great rage of sub drivers) or implement a new ship lines who is only effective against SS but not much against other ships). I wont tell things like nerf 20% off that or add 234 SD to this, because i have no real idea of what would happen. I have an old account in absolute timing (i had long pauses) tho and what i have noticed is that every new ships is usually well accepted (from almost everyone) And my assertion: I wont post another river of words, was partially autoironic (I tried to post a well constructed (and constructive i hope) comment. I didnt analysed each point cause the details have to be checked in test but all the ideas seem valid to me, at least in principle. Btw i would just notify that actually I am on your side i am for argumentative discussion more than intimidative/aggressive. And my offer to help in testing was and still is genuine.
Not saying you are useless or anything, I apologize if you understood it that way. What I meant, is a small comment with no explanation won't help people understand where you are coming from with the idea, and sometimes misunderstood what you are seeing with it. It was meant as a general statement, that some posts are going to be long, some deserves more in depth discussions. If you have a question about technicals aspect of an idea, feel free to post about it. No one will flame you because you are asking a question about the effect of a less known values or something of the like. Long wall of text doesnt necessarely mean a big chunk of technical data. Just explaining how you see it applying in game, and the effect you are looking for by proposing the changes helps. Also help the discussion progress by linking ideas together. Small tips : use the enter key to give some air to your text, separate ideas and their explanation. It avoids walls of text. Look at the quote, I,ve added some lines ;)
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 08. 2011 14:57
RedNemo
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But but i love wall of text ^^
Actually i wasnt paying so much attention to the format of the text, i am already quite dying trying to write in conventional english and not some random remix of french italian and english.
The fact is I have always though of suggestion by just keeping the original format of game, as i know it. And try to find a way to make RL facts going along with what we could see in this game.
Btw, you can really implement a sub to allow him to move in crit dive?
And you are right, add some spacing makes text more light ^^
Gottago, i hope i will find some new interesting enciclopedic post (semiautoirony off^^) and valid argumentation pro or against.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 10. 2011 11:15
Fallensun
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You know whats overpowered
A BB who can take over 16-24 torps... (16 for IJN 24 for KM<-- thats 6 salvos)
A little DD who can shoot farther then you can see from the south with HH
A level 12 gun killing a level 75+ ship with 1 gun only
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 10. 2011 11:53
ljsevern
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Originally Posted by Fallensun
You know whats overpowered
A BB who can take over 16-24 torps... (16 for IJN 24 for KM<-- thats 6 salvos)
A little DD who can shoot farther then you can see from the south with HH
A level 12 gun killing a level 75+ ship with 1 gun only
A) What torps? Definitely not sub torps. B) Yet a sub can easily avoid them C) Yet a sub can easily avoid it.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 10. 2011 13:45
overflow50
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"As above. Do not release SS5's until SS Balance by the Test Team"
This is the same team that put 42 knots on the mnbb6? or is the same team that made the sn bb line be a cr....? come on guy, u lives in an old world. You need to adapt a little to the new changes
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 10. 2011 14:44
ljsevern
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Originally Posted by overflow50
"As above. Do not release SS5's until SS Balance by the Test Team"
This is the same team that put 42 knots on the mnbb6? or is the same team that made the sn bb line be a cr....? come on guy, u lives in an old world. You need to adapt a little to the new changes
I never made the SN BB line. The MN BB6 is well balanced. Feel free to debate otherwise in another thread.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 11. 2011 10:27
Invinciblor
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Originally Posted by overflow50
"As above. Do not release SS5's until SS Balance by the Test Team"
SS5s are on the test server now. There's like three weeks in which changes can be made to balance them. Grab a friend and go test them. See if some are much stronger than others in their tier, or if the current layouts allow weird setups that are better than intended or whatever. Then go discuss those findings in the test forum. Then you won't have to complain as much later.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 11. 2011 13:14
ljsevern
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Originally Posted by Invinciblor
Originally Posted by overflow50
"As above. Do not release SS5's until SS Balance by the Test Team"
SS5s are on the test server now. There's like three weeks in which changes can be made to balance them. Grab a friend and go test them. See if some are much stronger than others in their tier, or if the current layouts allow weird setups that are better than intended or whatever. Then go discuss those findings in the test forum. Then you won't have to complain as much later.
The SS tier as a whole needs changes. The SS4's are already overpowered. The SS5's are going to be made better. I'm not going to partake in any balancing that still intends the content to be overpowered.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 11. 2011 16:27
RedNemo
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I will use this thread to shamelessely repropose my high tier support dedicated ship.
I know i will be hated for that: but a SS dont really have a chance if there are only 4 ships equipped with sonar and HH.
Especially if the players have a minimum of skills. Yeah unless the subs go 40 knots thats true (i dont think any sub even reached that speed until our days
But its also true that if the BBs of his team, or the CVs, manage to kill the ASW ships, well the sub has a freeway to easy kills.
What is the problem of this game is that now every possible setup has been calculated, every sailors has an ideal TA value to reach.
I mean in french what are now most of the ships of this game are called "Pur Sang".
The ships are hyperspecialised, everybody planes his grind and the ships are full. They do what they are meant to do very well, but not much more
Usually only few grind a sonarman if they dont play a sub.
And that for a simple reason, it take 1 slot during the grind, and will slow down considerably the reach of the lvl for a 14 sailors crew for a BB.
And more, when they reach around lvl 60 the sonarman becomes useless because a BB cant see subs, not many load him on the escort, because they dont use it.
So what i propose again, is a moderate high level ship (i would say 1 areound 60 and one around 80) balanced to avoid abuse in setup of sailors but give a BB player or a CV player (or even a SS player) the opportunity of use his knowledge in logic of the battle to be an effective ASW ship, that would make more ECL.
Thats also because when you play a BB if your gunners are not EBVE and you just have the level to use the guns you will be shooting ducks. This thing would allow people to grind up a decent main crew with much less pain, and allow new players to actually enjoy the game.
In a short ammount of months that could ehnance the level of actual newbie to higher tier ships, this would give more life to game and avoid his sunkage ^^ and more targets for the Uber high lvl players
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