Halcon wrote:I watched the show, I can understand the reasoning for both sides. However, I
support closing the research loophole on whaling and closing down Japanese
whaling operations.

Still waiting for that nut captain of the Steve Irwin to drop a contact mine off the
helipad in front of the Japanese processing ship.

The dolphin harvest pics are especially sick. I suppose there are socially backwards
parts to every nation. Yes, I am judging the Japanese on this, I seriously can't
believe there aren't Japanese citizens in there trying to drown those guys (I
do realize that there probably are Japanese in opposition, just not enough).

That being said, yes I eat meat, yes, cows die. But there's a difference I draw
between raised animals and harvesting wildlife./ end quote.

So what is the difference between a dolphin and a cow? Meat is Meat so what, people in
the US have gotten it so easy not having to kill a chicken to get some fried chicken for
dinner. Or cow or venison or whale meat.
You know hoarse meat is suppose to be some of the best tasting meat around, but why
do americans not eat hoarse all the time? Most see horses as some thing you ride not eat
and will be quick to correct you if you were to tell them you were going to butcher your
horse for steaks if not outright appalled.
In the end its that the horse was faster than cows when people were catching animals
for domestication, it had nothing to do with which animal tasted better it was purely "ok
these bas*ards the Horses are frikin fast so we will make them some thing we ride, these
cows are easier to catch and care for so we will eat them" kind of thing.

As for this "its ok to Farm animals *for what reason they believe this I will never
know* but wild animals are some how different and are not ever on the menu" ideah do you
all reallize all the animal domesticated or other wise came from wild animals? so what is
the difference between a free range cow and the fenced in ones I keep? the free range cows
are as wild as any wild animal as the herd has lived its life in the open country where as
mine have been fenced in since birth.
People in the south east pacific use dogs for meat all the time. It is the staple of
thier lower income's diet. It is not frowned upon at all. Just some thing those with more
money would not eat. Like how the rich here in the usa would not have any thing but some
kind of whine with there meal. where as I would have some kind of soda. So I am lower
"class" than them let the snobs waste there monies.
I have ate some of it before and it tastes quite like chicken but better if that's any
help. I was actually on a tour around their.

@Emma9

For one where is this Non Lethal 100% effective motion sensor/ flash bang thingy you
speak of? Do you realize what it costs to build even the fences?? "simple fences" will not
last a year in the elements nor will the 4 wire cattle fence keep out deer. Deer are
astounding acrobats, they can leap over my head in a single bound and to make a fence deer
can not jump over would mean making it at least twice as tall as any thing I have seen.
Then deer can FREAKIN DIG. I have seen them dig to get under fences before, and man can
they FREAKIN DIG!! the point of this is deer are not the defenceless thingy you make them
out to be.
Now as for the "Loud bang noise and it will scare them away" thing, I run my tractor
all over the fields and they really do not seem to mind at all. Not even trucks full of
hunters cruising parallel to them seem to frighten them off.
This is cause the Deer have gotten use to that activity so don't you think they might
get used to the loud bang thingy? What is this stupid loud bang thingy any way? Why would
I want it on my property? Is it even safe to me? what about my other property? can it
catch fire?


It is obvious to me you Emma9 are completely cut off from reality. The reality of it is
this, If farms are to prosper they are going to have to clear cut all the woods off their
property to completely move all the animals habitat away from their fields. If any one
wants a hunting place they are gona have to buy a complete square and cut down the deer
numbers to a healthy population that the land can support *so that they do not go looking
for food else where* and actively work on food plots and water sources for them. That
would be the only way to make it good on the farms but keep the hunters happy also. The SS
& PETA are ECO Terrorists in every thing I have seen them do so they can suck it as far as
I am concerned, they probably do not even go in the woods any way. They just like pretty
pictures of animals in nature IE not reall nature like a full grown bear chasing down a
fawn for brunch.

eat more chicken...


I still think its wrong to profit from anothers life..be it aquatic or human. Ethically
its just wrong. SS is clearly making an attempt to delay the decline of whales and maybe
extend a few years of whale life...they all will die eventually...harvesting whale faster
than reproduction allows until listed as endangered...just doesn't make sense to kill
until they get labled endangered. Claiming research is just as bad, if not worse, than SS
tactics IMHO. We still support the Steve Irwin and will continue to assist anyway possible
to fight for those who can not fight for themselves...however,,send our troops home please...

carry on..good to see the discussion still going on....and I love a cheeseburger!!!

@ Barmhero
"The hypocrisy is shocking at times"

Agreed, the study you cite used the cutting of an alfalfa field as it's primary example.
How much alfalfa have you eaten lately? Maybe a few sprouts but I'll bet you haven't
eaten any mowed alfalfa.
Do you see the irony in the fact that they picked a crop used for forage for cows as an
argument against vegans?
It's a proven fact that there is at least a 90% energy loss in the conversion of sunlight
to plant matter, and another 90% loss of available energy when converting plant matter to
animal tissue. Pretty basic calculation that eating more plants is more efficient at
feeding people.

@ Barmhero

Those are merely suggestions to illustrate my point - that there are non-lethal ways
to keep animals off your land without the need to kill hundreds of them. The only
problem is the people's reluctance to go the extra mile or make the extra effort - for
the simple reason they deem animals as nothing.

If you see a deer in your fields, you could just as well fire your shotgun in the air and
scare it off .. instead of firing straight at it and killing it. One deer may not seem
much, but over time it adds up to the hundreds. And if every farmer practices that, it
will be millions of dead animals which could have been alive if they were just more
considerate.

It is this kind of attitude - that 'animals don't matter', which have contributed to the
extinction of countless species. Sure, for now the common deer may be abundant,
but if people keep shooting them without regard, in 10 years, 20 years, or 50 years
time, they will end up like the dodo bird. Just a footnote in history.

I'm not a vegetarian, and I enjoy eating meat so I am fine with people slaughtering
animals to eat. But I will not condone those who kill animals merely because they
view them as unimportant or insignificant.

If man can land on the moon, I don't see why it should be impossible to find non-
lethal ways of keeping animals off farmland. The problem is people are unwilling to
make the extra effort.

Due to development, we encroach into their natural habitats. Those which they've
been living in for millions of years. And yet we kill them for living in their own
backyard?

That is akin to a real estate developer confiscating your land, and shooting you for
occupying that space. Now, tell me if you will accept that? Obviously not.

When it happens to humans, there's gonna be a big fuss. But when the same thing
happens to animals, some people don't give a damn. That is what's wrong with
humanity today. We have become too arrogant for our own good.

There's a difference between killing an animal for food, and killing an animal just
because one deems them insignificant. Some of you may view animals as one class
below. But after reading the replies of certain people, I beg to differ .. in fact I would
place animals as a class higher to them.

Because for living, thinking, intelligent beings, the arrogance, greed and self-serving
attitude of some people are simply astounding, that I simply cannot believe they
were born with anything resembling a brain.
(Note the word 'some'. Because I believe that the majority of humans are
considerate, humble and respectful beings. It is only the minority of bad apples that
give humans a bad name)

Alright, I read through all 8 pages of this debate, so I guess I have to throw my hat over
the wall.

The Japanese whalers are operating under both Japanese and international law, and
therefore, are doing nothing wrong in the legal sense. As far as this moral superiority
that some people seem to have about animals is just absolute rubbish. By eating only
plant products (being a vegetarian) a person is contributing to the squandering of natural
resources (millions and millions of gallons of water), as well as the death of countless
smaller animals.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

The hypocrisy is shocking at times. Why aren't these SS people out sabotaging combines
and tractors and other farm equipment? Why aren't they out there ramming the vehicles
that carry these crops to processing plants? Could it be that the death of these small
animals (voles, mice, rats, etc) doesn't resonate with the populace as much? So, unless
you are growing your own crops, and only consuming what you grow, you are in reality doing
nothing to limit the suffering of animals. Sure, you aren't eating that cow, but do you
think that they aren't going to slaughter that animal just because you aren't going to eat
it? Hell no. The only reason I don't buy more meat at the store is because I am picky,
and only want the best cuts, the nicest looking pieces. If you don't buy them, then
that's more good cuts for me.

These SS people are politicians by any other name, and they are using lies, deception, and
trickery to manipulate people into buying into their agenda. As well as politicians, they
are criminals. And from what I've seen, they are some of the worst criminals out there.
I don't mean "the worst" as in terrible people like rapists and child molesters, I mean
"the worst" as in just ineffective and amateurish. If they had any semblance of
professionalism, they would be able to device means with which to interrupt the whaling
operations that does not put them in such an actionable position. God forbid they sink
one of these whaling ships or kill the crews of these ships. The shitstorm that the
governments of those dead sailors would be relentless, not to mention the fact that any
credibility that they have (which isn't much, IMHO) would be lost forever.

Why aren't they out attempting to sabotage off-shore oil rigs and wind farms? These
institutions cause harm to the ecosystem and kill animal life. But they also do something
else. They provide a service to these same people. It seems to me that these SS people,
and a considerable number of all animal-rights activists (not all of them) are only
interested in limiting the suffering of animals as long as it doesn't inconvenience their
life style.

As for Emma, who is apparently against large scale farming that doesn't take every measure
into account to preserve animal life, I challenge you to attempt to do the same. You
suggested building a fence. That's a great idea, except for a few things. Have you ever
tried to drive a large piece of farm equipment, or any large vehichle for that matter, in
extreme close proximity to a fixed object. It's not that simple. The couple feet of
buffer zone that you would have to leave between the crops and the fence may not seem like
much, but lay that buffer zone of say, 10 feet, over a 1000 square acre field, you stand
to lose approximately 660 feet of land for each acre. You do the math, and that's a huge
chunk of arable land that is now unable to be farmed. Not to mention the fact that a
fence isn't going to do a damn thing to stop animals from getting in. The deer will
simply hop the fence (I've personally seen them clear 15' fences with absolutely no
problem), and the smaller animals will simply burrow under or find and exploit weaknesses
in the fence. The animals aren't as stupid as you think, and definitely don't require the
protection of humans. You said it yourself, they've been around for millennia, well
before humans were around, and while humans were flourishing. They obviously don't need
our help (except for a few extreme cases. IE the American buffalo and dinosaurs. The
hunting of dinosaurs by our forebears is the most horrendous atrocity to ever plague
humanity).

Back on topic. These SS people are pirates/criminals attempting to pass themselves off as
some kind of altruistic organization aimed at preserving life.

I have a proposal. I am going to form an organization whose goal is to preserve human
life. I am going to accomplish this by purchasing a boat and following this SI ship, and
block it at every turn (I feel that in order to stop the Steve Irwin, I must name my ship
The Stingray) That way, they are unable to interfere with the lawful practices of the
Japanese sailors, who are trying to make a living for themselves and support their
families. These SS people haven't killed anyone, yet. But they can't carry on like this
forever and not expect some sort of negative consequence to arise. They are a dangerous
group of people, and one of these days their going to reap it. I only hope when that day
comes the only people that die are the ones on-board the Steve Irwin.

I watched the show, I can understand the reasoning for both sides. However, I
support closing the research loophole on whaling and closing down Japanese
whaling operations.

Still waiting for that nut captain of the Steve Irwin to drop a contact mine off the
helipad in front of the Japanese processing ship.

The dolphin harvest pics are especially sick. I suppose there are socially backwards
parts to every nation. Yes, I am judging the Japanese on this, I seriously can't
believe there aren't Japanese citizens in there trying to drown those guys (I
do realize that there probably are Japanese in opposition, just not enough).

That being said, yes I eat meat, yes, cows die. But there's a difference I draw
between raised animals and harvesting wildlife.

"You may not know this but it is impossible to harvest the whole field when their is a
acre or 2 of woods *which would be enough for a dozen deer & 2 dozen turkeys*
they will eat the corn *or what ever you are planting* instead of the stuff they
normally eat."

--- Then build some fencing. Install motion sensors that when activated by animals
crossing into your fields, will set off a loud bang to scare them away.

There are non-lethal ways of keeping wild animals off your crop fields. Its only a
matter of you choosing to make the effort or not.


"As for your *animals are sacred beings with same rights as you* No they are not.
They are just animal and plants."

--- That says a lot about you. You view yourself as the centre of the universe and
everything else be damned. But the feeling is mutual. The way you view animals and
plants as useless and worthless, is the exact same impression I have of you.


"When it comes down to the needs of people or nature I choose other people."

--- This is not about the needs of "other people", so don't kid yourself with that
statement. The only need you are catering to here is your selfish greed.


"No way I will ever nature over the needs of people."

--- When it comes to people like you, I will choose animals any time of day. If you
and a deer both lay wounded on a road, and I could only save one, I would choose
the deer. At least the deer is lovable and will not contribute to the deaths of
countless other living beings.


"If the animals are causing a problem with the farms Agricultural endeavors then the
Farms should have the right to do what ever they feel is necessary to fix that
problem."

--- Oh please, tell me the name of your farm, or the brandname of foodstuff your
farm produces. I will be sure to avoid it and spread the word, to ensure it hurts your
profits. It may not be much, but even denying you a dollar would be great.


"No way a bunch of out of touch animal rights wackos should get to tell the farms
that they have to let the deer eat their crops *cause they have rights too dont cha
know* just plain NO."

--- Show me where I explicitly stated to let those animals eat your crops? Is it so
fucking hard to find non-lethal ways of protecting your crops? Don't say it's
impossible. If man can reach the moon with some willpower, he sure as hell can find
ways of keeping animals off his land without killing them.


"A farm is a business, and businesses have the right to eliminate waste to better
their own bottom line. and YES these businesses to have a right to earn all the
profits they can."

--- So at the end of the day, its all about you and your profits, everyone and
everything else be damned. I supposed you would be willing to shoot a certain
animal to extinction as long as you can make more profits. When I meet people like
you, I sometimes wonder, are certain people born without brains?

You are a disgrace to mankind. I'm only glad that halfbrain asstards like you are in
the minority, and luckily most people are still educated, civilized, decent and
considerate enough to respect the sanctity of life.

Emma9 wrote:--- For starters, I believe not every farmer is as inconsiderate to nature as
you are.
There are good farmers who find ways to coexist with nature's creatures, and do
not employ the 'they're pests so exterminate them!' kind of thinking. /end quote.

You may not know this but it is impossible to harvest the whole field when their is a
acre or 2 of woods *which would be enough for a dozen deer & 2 dozen turkeys* they will
eat the corn *or what ever you are planting* instead of the stuff they normally eat. Its
impossible to make little food plots out there that they will eat from every day over
eating grass.
The corn is sweeter or has some thing in it that they are lacking I guess because they
defiantly prefer my row crops to their normal forage.


As for your *animals are sacred beings with same rights as you* No they are not. They are
just animal and plants. When it comes down to the needs of people or nature I choose other
people. No way I will ever nature over the needs of people. If the animals are causing a
problem with the farms Agricultural endeavors then the Farms should have the right to do
what ever they feel is necessary to fix that problem.
No way a bunch of out of touch animal rights wackos should get to tell the farms that
they have to let the deer eat their crops *cause they have rights too dont cha know* just
plain NO.
A farm is a business, and businesses have the right to eliminate waste to better
their own bottom line. and YES these businesses to have a right to earn all the profits
they can.
Thanks 4 reading,
Darren69

" P.S. Emma9 about your "I hope u loose all your crops and die" thing. Ok next year
I wont plant any crops and if every other farmer did the same thing.....all year
long..... I wonder how long you would still look at the world out side of the city as
suppose to be wild woods a "no go off limits to humans area" lets see how long that
works. You do realize when you cook up some corn it could be mine right? "


--- For starters, I believe not every farmer is as inconsiderate to nature as you are.
There are good farmers who find ways to coexist with nature's creatures, and do
not employ the 'they're pests so exterminate them!' kind of thinking.

These animals have been here for millenia. What gives you the right to say that they
should all be killed, or moved off to a special area .. just so you can make an extra
dollar? .. Like I said, how would you feel if you were evicted so some developer can
make money off YOUR land?

If every one in this world was like you, the only living creatures on earth would be 6
billion humans. I'm sorry, if humans were the the only living things, this earth would
be a very very boring place.

I treat all life as equal. Animals have just as much rights to live and exist on the
grounds we share. And I will not condone the killing of innocent creatures, or put
them all in cages in some zoo, just so someone like you can make extra profit.