One-shotted Venas' sub a couple times with PHHs and auto FCS on a PCA.
Was amusing to see him rage.

Also fun to one-shot Altsein. He will then start with his lame Spock macro about lasers becoming PHHs.

People keep thinking all this balance for SS/HH/ASW means a nerf... that is sad and truly doesn't help the discussion at all.

I will invite everyone interested to go and read the proposals in the test server section and to participate in the test discussions inside the test server.

SS are overpowered for NFNA, they were designed for an uncapped server (NFKR). HH/ASW are also overpowered for NFNA and will be worked on. But this does't mean everything will get nerfed... they will get balanced.

What does this mean?... that we have to find the correct mix of buffs and nerfs so we can find it's rightful place in NFNA. In some aspects, SS are overpowered and in some others way underpowered... that is the main reason people skip SS1 and SS2, the current characteristics make them useless.

ASW/HH also has to be looked at because they are overkilling subs and ships. That will also come in the discussion after SS, its logical that they can't stay as they are if the class they are supposed to counter changes.

Remember there are 2 more tiers to come and the SS class has to reach lvl120 with an increase in performance compared to their lower tiers.... just like BB5/6 are better than BB3/4 in almost every aspect.

Please go read the proposals, because they are in no way a nerf to the whole SS class. You will also see that those people some of you call "sub-haters" are actually looking for a way to make SS class challenging and rewarding for players.

HH/ASW and SS class hasn't found its place in NFNA yet... please help us to do it.

While I wouldn't call them sub-haters, sometimes I do have reservations about people's objectivity.
Whether or not they are able to see things from a balanced perspective and act accordingly, or do they simply try to mould things to fit preconceived notions.

Call me a pessimist, but I do not believe that anyone can be 100% neutral in anything. Each person has a bias towards certain things or ideals, however little or much. And people being people, they always tend to look out for their own interests first - this goes for both sides of any argument.

Back to the sub debate, sometimes I do feel the effects get overblown.
Take for example, a player in a BB6 that is so focused on fighting the enemy, that he loses all positional awareness and gets sunk by a sub.

Now, what is the first thing that crosses his mind? Subs are overpowered monsters, of course.
- Will he think of the fact that he lost positional sense and forgot a sub was lurking in his direction, hence he made a mistake that contributed to his downfall? No.
- Will he consider that it was the only game out of 10 that he got sunk by a sub, hence it could simply be chalked down to one of those occasions when he's in the wrong place at the wrong time? No.

Seething with rage, all he thinks about is that a Lv80 ship sank him, he could not fight back, it's an injustice, the world is upside down and something has to change. He remains oblivious to all other contributing factors.

Now, that feeling applies to many people. And should some of those be called upon to offer their inputs on sub balancing, could they be totally impartial? Personally, I doubt it.

My point is, with subs having caused so much grief to so much people, even the most level-headed persons can be subconsciously clouded by bias. I'm not saying that anyone has a hidden agenda, merely that due to many negative experiences, people might unintentionally overcompensate on any changes.


(Disclaimer 1 - The above words are coming from someone who is almost exclusively a BB and ASW player)

(Disclaimer 2 - I'm a deal-with-it kind of person, not the change-the-world type, which is why balance processes are not something I'd be interested in)

** TL:DR version ** - Subs have caused so much grief that impartiality is improbable, and that any balance suggestions offered up might be subconsciously driven by past negative experiences alone, while the bigger picture is hidden from view.

That is true and it can go both ways... people that are very comfortable with the way one class is played today and don't want changes, and others that feels that feel grief over negative past experiences. We all have some sort of bias.

The important point is to have an ideal role in mind and work from there, keeping in mind the characteristics of our server (remember, ability caped server). Subs/HH/ASW need to change because they don't entirely fit... the questions we must answer are, how we want them to change? and what role we want them to play?

Main issue here is that people still think that balance = nerf, and that way of thinking doesn't lead to productive discussions. Start thinking about a mix of nerfs and buffs that are in line with the server caps and the role you want SS/ASW to play.

And all that is happening in the test server... many threads have been opened in General Discussion that don't go anywhere... because they fail to provide their ideal balance (mix of buffs and nerfs) in the correct place, the test server.

Indeed. Ideally, one should be able to distance oneself from any personal feelings, look at the grand scheme of things, and decide on how best to obtain an equilibrium among all elements involved.

But to be honest, it seems kind of improbable. On the one camp you have BB players agrieved by subs, on the other hand you have sub players viewing every change as a nerf conspiracy by the BB players who are out to get them.

Let's just hope that the majority would be sensible enough, and that any changes would benefit both camps, not just one or the other.

Of course PHH should be removed.

I saw the thread title and thought... man, Nerf Hedgehogs would be awesome! Shooting 5 or 7 foam darts at once... yeah!