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República Argentina
(Argentine Republic)

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  • Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 13. 2012 14:14


Sindher
I'd like to know some of your opinions regarding this whole situation with ownership.

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  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 01:20


Biter_Wylie
For the Falklands to fall into Argi hands again would require total surprise. Unlikely in 2012.

Personally I do not think Argentina needs better armed forces. They have a beautiful country and money would be better spent on health care and inferstructure.

Building an Force to take back the Island would be economically a bad move. It would require spending which would cripple the economy with the only guarantee being a stalemate.

Just putting 20k troops on the island would not be enough, as they would be cut off and essentially under siege. Argentina would require a new navy and airforce.

If Argentina continues to build a beautiful country with nice economy, good trade links, and social mixing. In the end they will move away from the uk. Let's face it! The Uk goes in the opposite direction with poor economy, poor infrastructure and filty crime ridden cities. Great armed forces though!!!

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 04:59


Splid
Sorry SIndher but there are a number of things that you have overlooked in your "plans" for retaking the Falklands.

Originally Posted by Sindher
1. Task force sails south, SSN's arrive in advance inserting Special forces on to the Falklands and into Argentina. The SSN's cut off all shipping to the islands by sea. No re-supply and no warships would survive when faced with British SSN's hunting them.
SSN's armed with Tomahawk land attack missiles will disable the airports and airbases at Mount Pleasant (Falklands) and the Argentine air bases in the south, limiting Argentine air forces to using bases further north and further inland. Special Forces provide support in this mission and also RN Frigates provide support for the SSN's in sea denial.


Whilst it is true that Britain's Nuclear powered submarines can provide a defensive screen against any vessels present, the idea that missile attacks on the Argentinian Mainland are a possibility is absolutely implausible. The UK does not have the support of America (granted we didn't exactly in the last war considering how unhelpful they were at times), and has no major allies in this conflict. If we start shooting at Argentina, that will escalate the conflict immeasurably. I wonder how popular and international opinion will sway when we hit a building containing civilians on the airbase?

Attacking Airbases on the mainland is not feasible, not even close. We would be crucified internationally.



Originally Posted by Sindher
2. With Argentine re-supply is now limited to air transport only until the Type 45 Destroyers arrive to take control of Air Defence. When these arrive on station this will end. No Argentine transport aircraft or fighter jets have the ability to successfully engage and destroy a Type 45. Type 45 covers an area of 400 square miles.


Provided some sort of transport of troops is possible to the Falklands, Argentina will put as many men on them, and dig in. So, the Argentinians have air control (no bombing bases on the mainland) and ground control for the moment.


Originally Posted by Sindher
3. After successfully disabling Argentine air bases, successfully defending access from the sea, and successfully defending the airspace over the islands and utilising the helicopter AWACS for early warning where needed the RN is now in a position to secure a beach head and land ground forces.
The UK therefor will be fighting whatever size force the Argentine have landed on the islands.


(Ignoring the disabling Argentina air bases)

Now, depending on how the conflict has actually progressed, this is partially feasible. IF Argentina doesn't go all in with thousands of troops, the full force of their (allbeit ageing) air force and whatever naval support they can offer (without it being blown up), then MAYBE there would be a chance that with the air defence shield of the T45s and the sea shield of the nuclear submarines, a landing could be foced.


Originally Posted by Sindher
4. RN ships, submarines, apache gunships and special forces begin to assail and bombard the Argentine forces on the islands whilst recconnaisance will pinpoint a suitable landing area for ground forces.


Potentially possible, apart from probably the Apache bit. Rolling hills and hundreds of islands, even the Taliban managed to down a Chinook and that was on less favourable terms.


Originally Posted by Sindher
5. Amphibious assault begins



Originally Posted by Sindher
6. Superior armed, trained and motivated British troops gradually inflict defeat upon defeat on the Argentines until the inevitable surrender.


In your scenario (which I deem implausible), this all sounds very good. But you have thought nothing about international opinion, or pressure in this. The fact is, once the argentinians have already TAKEN the Falkland islands, every country in the UN will be pressing for peace and talks to open. There will be no Backers for Britain going to war.

Every day that a task force sails south, every civilian death and every action that is fought will resolve more and more countries to call for peace. It isn't so simple as to turn around and say "screw them", this is international politics, not a playground popularity contest.


With Subs and T45s defending a task force and launching an assault based on that defence it would all be great. But without carrier bourne aircraft support, the risks are far too great. You can't risk Billion Pound Destroyers, and expensive subs without the aircraft support to back them up. As I have said, it SOUNDS great, but the risks are huge, and the price of failure is just 1 T45. Our resolve can harden all it wants at the loss of ships and troops, but we simply don't have the ships to contribute to a prolonged conflict.

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 06:34


Biter_Wylie
It is an impossible scenario based on the fact Argentina does not have a military capability to capture let alone hold the islands. The uk is in a much stronger position today than in the 80's, even without a CV. Type 45 are capable of totally controlling all airspace. Also today the Falklands are protect by early warning aircraft and Typhoon fighters of the RAF since 2009.

If we go into total fantasy and drop lots of Argentine troops on the island it would not even require an invasion fleet to force there surrender. The Argentine troops were very quickly in a poor stat without resupply in the first war. To recapture the islands did not require air support, only air superiority.

The Argentine government gamballed on political pressure to keep the Islands during the first conflict. It did not work then and would hold even less chance today.

If Argentina attacked the Falklands then mainland Argentina would not be spared from strikes if they were deemed tactically required to achieve the objective. There is few governments that could give any valid argument against attacking the aggressor. Those that do will be just political pandering with no teeth.

Loosing a type 45 means little. War is war. Sometimes you loose assets. It does not mean you loose the victory. The British government would love the chance to get huge popularity again with a small scale war such as in this scenario.

The British love a fight.

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 07:14


Splid
"If Argentina attacked the Falklands then mainland Argentina would not be spared from strikes if they were deemed tactically required to achieve the objective. There is few governments that could give any valid argument against attacking the aggressor. Those that do will be just political pandering with no teeth."

You can't just attack mainland Argentina because they invade the Falkland Islands... That is not how war is waged in the civilised world. You are aware that there are rules of engagement, and articles and conventions of war right?

An easy way to end a war in the Falklands would be to destroy Buenos Aires, but then we are looking at war crimes on top of the other crimes previously menioned.


"Loosing a type 45 means little. War is war. Sometimes you loose assets. It does not mean you loose the victory. The British government would love the chance to get huge popularity again with a small scale war such as in this scenario."

It means little does it? The lives of hundreds of men, millions of pounds of investment and a liberal led back-bench rebellion. This coalition government would do well to survive a small scale war like the Falklands intact, let alone if they start losing ships and men. This coalition government is weak, the only saving grace would be that Labour may support the war, but if they didn't the government would fall quickly and our troops would be withdrawn.

"The British love a fight. "

And here we have degenerated into the sensationalist nonsense that plagues such discussions.

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 07:33


Biter_Wylie
You seemed detached from reallity here Splid. Civilians working on military bases are still military personnel. Your leap into wholesale destruction of the capital is sensationalist. If a Radar or communications centre was deemed a real threat it would be destroyed.

The British love a fight, understanding the mindset of the people is critical to any government. Support for taking the Islands back in the Uk would be almost total. Just as it was the first time. The government would be heroes.

You also think loosing a ship would be so damaging? British armed forces are a professional armed force (payed) they live to serve there country. The loss of a ship would be mourned, but it would only heighten the resolve of the nation and strengthen the position of the government.

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 08:13


SaseCaiBlele
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xRXDz-C5KE

Originally Posted by Sindher
1. Task force sails south, SSN's arrive in advance inserting Special forces on to the Falklands

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 08:19


Sindher
It's a plan Splid and it's the most likely plan out of all them. You could replace Tomahawks with SAS/SBS and you'd still get the same result. We would be dominant on the sea and in the air.

Also, nobody in the UN would be telling Britain to not go to war and instead have peace talks. How daft is that?

Argentina has invaded and basically enslaved Britons that have said they wish to remain British. The fact that their denying Falkland flagged boats already is hilarious.

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 08:40


Shin_K
@Splid & others...
"The problem I have with the whole situation is the way that Argentina actually instills into their younger generations that the Falkland Islands actually belong to them and they are somehow wronged by not posessing them. This is indoctrination of the worst kind in my opinion."

Hey, it isn't like North Korea or something, we have access to all the facts, but the truth is, that nobody cares to read about it.

The military had too much power and political influence during the 20th century. They did a lot of damage to the country, specially during the last dictatorship, as they had more support from society. Galtieri didn't want a war with UK, but after the massive support of the argentinian people, he couldn't go back.

Then, after all the damage done by the military during the last dictatorship, I think our politicians realized that it was a huge mistake to support them, and they also had to cover their own involvment, so they knew where to put the blame and how to cover their tracks. Since then, they teach us in the school a twisted and simplified version of the history: that the military was the devil that apparently came out from nowhere, and that the war was the adventure of a drunk general. Nobody is to blame, except the military junta.

Whilst we insist with our claims, now we put special emphasis in peaceful settlement, as the ONLY way to get the islands back. I also think that the dismantled military power it's like a sort of safety measure put in there to avoid another war, even if we are stupid enough to fill a place to cheer on a drunk again. So for now we are not a threat to anyone, and the military have zero power. Could be much worse, we are an advanced country in nuclear technology, we could develop nuclear weapons faster than the Iranians, and for a country with this kind of commitment and resources, full of flawed human beings, as you can find anywhere else, would have been very easy to follow the path of war, arms and violence. That's my personal opinion.

I don't like to waste my money on weapons either, but in this world we need some credible defence capabilities, especially a large country like Argentina, with many natural resources.

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 09:16


Splid
This discussion left reality a long time ago...

Bunch of armchair generals with no knowledge of the military or the political system in this country. Might as well go and talk to a nursery group for intelligent discussion I feel...

  • Re : Falklands or Malvinas?

    02. 18. 2012 09:48


Sindher
Classic Splid.

Was expecting it a bit sooner to be fair.

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