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  • Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    12. 31. 2013 07:53

Recommend : 15

Telegraph

As the World at War rooms are bb exclusive for the most part just forbid subs from ever entering, like Blitz.
If the general playerbase thinks World at War  should remove the no submarine option, then recommend this thread. It is past the time for World At War to include submarine without discriminating.

War entails RISK, not Molly-Coddling surface ship players.  

Yes I know that NavyField =/= Real Life and this game displays this situational fact everyday. 

Recommend that the No Torp option be removed forever.

CV uses sonar so the argument "we can't see subs" or "we want to use escorts" does not stand. If you are afraid to sail out by yourself, then follow modern military protocol and stay near the carriers.

All that is required is minor behavioral modification and intelligence/strategy application on the part of bb drivers to remain near the sonar equipped surface vessels.

 

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 09. 2014 12:19


bergy

Originally Posted by JohnnyQuick

Originally Posted by Arcaniz

Please tell me what challenge the sub faces in an uncapped room

 


I would say but I would be banned again LOL!!


 

i kinda wish you would!

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 02:39


Meastro444

Originally Posted by Telegraph

Originally Posted by bergy

 

Like pict said, it won't be removed, there is simply no argument for it and if it was the game mode would probably just die out.

 

keep the no torp option!



If the No Torp option is removed, the battleroom that offers the HIGHEST exp will not die out. That reason (game mode dying out) on it's face cannot be sustained simply because the difference between W A W and Great Battle would be the inclusion of any level player as opposed to highly SKILLED players that have to face real challenges.

The current argument to keep the No Torp option is based on the pretense that W A W should exclude subs regardless of any reasoning. Much like those who travel highways and by-ways that love the scenery but hate the unexpected sharp turns and snags that comes with everyday travel. The No Torp option, by exclusion, allows ALREADY high level surface ship players an Easy Street free of unexpected twists and turns as found in Real Life.

Lets just rename the World At War to "Safe Playpen' for BB/CV Only". Now HOW MANY players would complain if the Highest EXP room was Submarine oriented? Go figure.

Remember it is NOT World At War if submarines are excluded.

Remove the option of No Torp. 

It would be nice to have the name changed to 'Safe Playpen' if the No Torp option is activated because it IS NOT A WAR without submarines.  Play Safe and have fun. 

Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound here? You are not the one defining WaW. It's SDE. You only want a safe play pen for subs.

Keep the no torp option.

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 05:03


nyerkovic

Originally Posted by Telegraph

The current argument to keep the No Torp option is based on the pretense that W A W should exclude subs regardless of any reasoning. 



Sorry, you are extremely wrong. That is not even close to the current argument.
Players have expressed valid points and you haven't addressed a single one of them in this discussion. You keep pushing that it is discrimination without any facts, yet when presented with them you don't discuss them... sorry, but if you keep that train of thought you won't convince anyone.


Here is a reminder of some of the things you have not addressed in the discussion.

Originally Posted by nyerkovic

You keep pointing out the risk factor as one of the strong points of the argument. However, there is objectively little to no risk for an SS player in these rooms in the current ASW/SS state.


Some facts that support this statement:

1- CVs earn little exp, so very little join, hence not many CVs to use Sonar. (Result: No sub detection or counters)

2- No Escorts: See norms explanation in the other thread, they are tecnhically unviable due to the no caps and little displacement. (Result: No sub detection or counters)

3- No ASW Ships: Current ASW ships were not originally designed for the tasks, so they don't have enough usable displacement or decent exp gain at their level to be an effective available ship for WaW (Result: No sub detection or counters)

4- BBs are not designed to carry HH: Some ships just do not mix with HH as they need the AA platforms to excel. This has been said countless times, BBs exist and were designed way before submarines and were never meant to be used as a counter for them. They can't detect them, they can't attack them. On top of this, WaW scenario makes them extremely fast and the very few CVs available can't keep up with their speed and keep them in detection range (Result: No sub detection or counters)

5- Contrary to what you have said before, Subs do have an incredible firepower and manuverability and are effective capital ships. In WaW they have a huge power and as pointed out before, no counters. (Result: No risk for subs)

 

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 06:52


Cracko

Originally Posted by nyerkovic

You keep pointing out the risk factor as one of the strong points of the argument. However, there is objectively little to no risk for an SS player in these rooms in the current ASW/SS state.


Some facts that support this statement:

1- CVs earn little exp, so very little join, hence not many CVs to use Sonar. (Result: No sub detection or counters)

2- No Escorts: See norms explanation in the other thread, they are tecnhically unviable due to the no caps and little displacement. (Result: No sub detection or counters)

3- No ASW Ships: Current ASW ships were not originally designed for the tasks, so they don't have enough usable displacement or decent exp gain at their level to be an effective available ship for WaW (Result: No sub detection or counters)

4- BBs are not designed to carry HH: Some ships just do not mix with HH as they need the AA platforms to excel. This has been said countless times, BBs exist and were designed way before submarines and were never meant to be used as a counter for them. They can't detect them, they can't attack them. On top of this, WaW scenario makes them extremely fast and the very few CVs available can't keep up with their speed and keep them in detection range (Result: No sub detection or counters)

5- Contrary to what you have said before, Subs do have an incredible firepower and manuverability and are effective capital ships. In WaW they have a huge power and as pointed out before, no counters. (Result: No risk for subs)

 

1-CVs gain a lot of exp in WaW, much more than in GBs and CVs join WaWs. But 80% of them preffer beeing bombing all the time for getting exp instead making other duties, they just don't need to teamplay, noone needs to teamplay in WaW, not even BBs is just "boom","boom","boom" 300k exp and move to the next battle. If they actually teamplayed they would detect subs.

 

2-No Escorts on WaW, so what? Even with them on the field they don't have the intelligence for not crossing other ships, i think even if they exist they would anyone more than help.

 

3-No ASW ships? Sorry? BBs can't carry HH? And what about the other SSs? SSs are not a counter for other SSs? Like the only counter for a CV bomber in WaW are fighters. "No detection and no counter" ... Other SSs detect and counter. Other thing is SSs don't care about other SSs and will not fight generally between themselves because they preffer to going kill BBs ... hey, what about a exp fix?

 

4-BBs are not designed to carry HHs? lol. BBs can carry a good number of HHs and they are pretty effective in WaW because they reload almost at the instant. Other thing is people want to use the T-slots for leveling sailors, or making 10 supports configurations, AW your QV or L2, etc, then they should pay the price in battle. But who needs HHs/AAs for some tactic gameplay if all what you are going to do is "boom","boom","boom" getting 300k exp and move to next WaW in less than 3 minutes.

 

5-Yes they do have too much firepower. The main issue of that firepower is the insane reload, then limit that firepower by capping the torp reload, it shouldn't be too hard to do. About manuverability just check the speed of a SS underwater and the speed of a BB in WaW, that gives the chance of going back, but another thing is you are in WaW and just want to go forward and "boom", "boom", "boom", the SS intercepts and kill you, then if you use the speed for commiting suicide the problem is yours.

--------------------

 

I don't get how much problem has people with SSs. I bring BB6 to many GBs and never had a major problem with subs and i'm a main target, but hey, when i go to a GB i put HHs. I have in mind where are my SSs and where are the enemy ones, i predict if i'm going to have help or not, i think before going forward, i use my brain. When SSs were allowed in WaW neither had a major problem with them. Sometimes you die by SS, well, bad luck, i failed or team didn't help with it, its the game.

 

There is also the issue of the bulge, people just put the bulge without loosing speed, hey guys, you also have the option of putting 255 loosing 1 or 2 knots, and that can save you for a complety torp wave of a SS5.5, you don't do it? You preffer speed, don't you? Then pay the price and be more vulnerable. You don't use HHs for leveling 2 sailors on T slots? Then pay the price and be more vulnerable. You play like a mad in WaW only worried about "boom","boom","boom" getting fast exp and don't make tactical gameplay at all? Then pay the price.

 

No, don't pay the price, let's just remove SSs for people play simple without worrying about them. Even with the aberrant and blasphemic amounts of exp given in WaW let's make the game as easy as possible, don't make the game too stressful. A BB player in WaW only has to worry about "boom", "boom", "boom" ... don't make it complex or people's brain can explode. And then the same people are always crying about the lack of skill in the game, lol, BB skill is not only "boom", "boom", "boom", is about multitasking, about being aware of multiple things and about that thing you have in the ship called T-slots.

 

BB-field, like in HAs, where SSs were limited to 5 too and the setup for a harbor tile is 25BBs/5CVs/5SSs. I don't know what kind of NF people like but with the time is going highly biased to make BB game-play each time easier and to favour everyone play that class instead making it fair for all the different classes.

 

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 07:56


Telegraph

Ok, so let's examine this carefully. Most war rooms include the option for escorts. Escorts DO NOT level up the crew onboard the Escort vessel. The No Torp option excludes submarines. We cannot remove or exchange sailors in battle to be certain.

Personally, I have no problem at all using Escorts. I use them everytime I can. If my escort gets sunk, I have no sonar tracking in my immediate vicinity and rely upon other players with sonar equipped vessel.

Currently in WaW rooms CV has operational s.onar = Sonar equipped vessel (Edit - for some reason I cant fix the s.onar)

I have read in other threads where "Manual aim is the desired direction" or 'intent' of this game as designed by the NF developers - to offer auto-aim for beginners and to progress to manual aim as a player levels up. <===== This is a form of behavioral modification.

Was this an inclination on the developers part to modify player behavior or reward players that are keyboard proficient with the 'A', 'S', 'W', 'D', 'Q', 'E', keys? Noted that I cannot 'assign' the arrow keys on my keyboard to game functions.

(I could use the SHIFT key to alternate between weapons and ship direction regarding arrow key usage)  Although this particular game can be hacked, I choose to NOT lose my account for the reason of Hacking. If the option to assign other keys is not available under the F-10 ingame option then I use whatever else ingame that is available to all players.

As most of us know, during the game players complain (sometimes bitterly) of CV player that equips certain pilots which do not cover the full spectrum of Recon, Fighter, Dive Bomber and Torpedo Bomber. Without trying to instigate a flamewar regarding other classes of naval operations available to us all we must remember that a player which enters a battle in a CV comes with a crew to cover the basic attack functions of Fighter and Bomber. (in some cases, Either.)

Recon in the air (scouting) or water (Sonar) IS AVAILABLE yet employed by the CV player's choice. Anyone's definition of a "Team Player" is open to vast interpretation, given any immediate circumstance or conditions. Most of us realize that carriers cannot control the airspace of a battleroom individually yet if one looks at an area, such as an East to West (or West to East) corridor, and remains in that corridor, then that CV player can focus pilot attention to that section. This is of course taking the pre-positioning of the CV itself to address the upcoming battle and take the upper, middle or lower track. [Providing that the host waits for 6 cv - ideally]

We must agree that the CV is VERY important. It has more uses than just fighter, bomber or scouting duties it can perform.  So how does this integrate into "Team Play"? Well, that depends on the team.  Is it just possible that the NavyField game developers 'intended' for BB to work with CV and ADVANCE forward as an integrated unit? This would require "cooperation" of both classes to be effective and institute a mutual appreciation from both parties to be certain. The "cooperation" aspect IS a form of behavioral modification on the individual's part yet to be part of a 'Team' effort, the individual must choose to align with a CV to make it across to the other side in the corridor that takes the accepted track.

Yes, the BB players would have to modify their behavior and forget about the North to South zigzag maneuvering which many here seem already accostumed to. Would they be willing to give that up to be part of an integrated unit assigned to a corridor? The obvious answer is that in order to increase the chances for success and teamwork, YES.

CV and BB can equip HedgeHog or AA guns. That is a choice of the CV/BB player. As an individual, one can choose to equip AA (personal) use or HH (Team) use [possibly part of an advancing integrated unit]. To be a Team Player, one MUST sacrifice the Individual aspect to serve the greater whole.

Are players willing to do what is needed to be a "Team Player", or must the desire of the "Individual" come first and rule out teamwork as an option?

Let's be honest, individually the disarray of unorganization makes the chance for loss increase. Teamwork requires individuals coming together for a common cause to work as a unit and come win or lose, that unit will advance as far across the map as the individual player throws Individual effort in to a Team effort.

By removing the No Torp option, the battle group (Middle, North or South) will have to move across the map together (in it's corridor) to succeed in clearing that corridor. 

First and foremost, NavyField is a teamwork game and removing the No Torp option will by necessity foster teamwork. The BB protects the CV and the CV watches for submarine passively. BB/CV players can use HH to dispatch Submarines after the submarines are discovered by the CV sonar. (or by BB that first see torp trails in water)

Team strategy and player choice will remain in conflict until it IS necessary to work together. By removing the No Torp option, TEAMWORK becomes necessary! Those game developers ARE smart!

The disorganization we see in Great Battle and other rooms will have to be left behind and a honing of interpersonal skills must occur to succeed in World At War if the No Torp option is removed. Individual choice of play is HIGHLY prized but dysfunctional where teamwork is required. If the No Torp option is removed, then teamwork will be the direction of higher skilled players as they HAVE to work together. Allowing the No Torp option to remain fosters a "Me, Me, Me" environment geared to individual choice of play which easily leads into disarray and defeat.

It is your game, Carefully consider this post as compulsory teamwork is the ultimate goal of removing the No Torp option. It does not matter if you are a Nazi, Nipponese, British, French, Russian, American naval equipped player because to win you have to work together as a team.

World at War was not meant to be a Blitz room. GB 1 and 2, various battle rooms, are preparatory stages for the World at War where teamed highly skilled players face off in game-based high stakes warfare. The reward is GREAT.

I am for removing the No Torp option.

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 08:12


fromage

Originally Posted by Cracko

I bring BB6 to many GBs

lol

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 09:27


nyerkovic

Originally Posted by Cracko

All....




Although you missed a couple of the points I was trying to make, I agree with some of the things you said, specially with the "boom","boom","boom" 300k exp and move to the next battle mentality. 

But all you are doing here is further sustaining my first point a few pages ago. There are a lot of underlying issues in WaW that result in people choosing the no torp option. Just saying "remove the no torp" won't solve them and untill it is done, people won't play a game they don't want to.

I want subs in WaW, but saying remove the no torps won't make it happen. Teamplay, which you mentioned is something very important to have and today the options for it in WaW are greatly reduced by not being able to successfuly use the support ships available in the game.

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 09:28


bergy

Originally Posted by Cracko

 I bring my UP41 to every GB

 

 

 

 

 

fixed

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 10:01


nyerkovic

Originally Posted by Telegraph

Team strategy and player choice will remain in conflict until it IS necessary to work together. By removing the No Torp option, TEAMWORK becomes necessary! Those game developers ARE smart!



Thank you for this quote. It completely proves my previous points.


I can't agree more with this. If you remove the no torp option, teamwork becomes extremely necessary. Now the problem and the underlying issue because of which people end up choosing the no torp option lies in here.


Remember the game and ships were originaly designed before SS ships came into play (or even thought of), so the teamwork aspect of the game (which to this day still hasn't changed) had certain considerations.

BBs were thought with an AA job in mind (even UK with the pom-poms), so their performance in battle is dependant on their AA capabilities (all their stats have their AA capabilties in mind). They have a job aiding in teamwork in this area, helping to blind the enemy because, as much as some people would like this to be true, CVs can't do the job alone. This fact is true for all the original nations and the new nations were also introduced following this idea.

Many people will agree that there are many ships in the game that are just food in this game without AA and they agree with it for the above reason. They were not designed to run without it.


Now that SS ships came into play and since this original BB role hasn't changed at all (there has been no redesign of the above tasks), it has fallen into the small ships to provide support and aid the team in both detecting and attacking submarines.

Here we see the problem... How do you expect teamwork against SS ships in WaW to happen when you are missing the element that aids in this particular area?

Can BB ships take on that role and equip HH? sure... but then they neglect their original role in supporting AA and they reduce their performance because they can no longer blind the enemy (unless you expect the CV to take on that role alone which we already determined it can not do). If you are talking about the need for teamwork in the game, this is an undeniable fact, specially in a room with only capital ships (CV/SS/BB) and no support ships.


Add to this some of the teamwork points Cracko has mentioned above and you get one serious issue in WaW that won't be solved by just "remove the no torp option".

GB works with all the ships because you have all the elements to produce teamwork, whether people use it or not is another point, but the elements are all there. In WaW however, you are missing all the elements that aid in creating teamwork and are expecting teamwork to just happen only because you removed an option and didn't introduce the elements along with it.

See the point?

This is why people choose the no torps and I've come to understand that unless this changes, I won't be able to play my submarine with them as much as I want it to happen. 

I'm not against you in your quest to have a space for submarines in the game, I want it to happen, but you are not seeing the situation from the right point of view.

  • Re : Remove the No Torp option from World At War rooms

    01. 10. 2014 10:25


Cracko

Originally Posted by nyerkovic


I want subs in WaW, but saying remove the no torps won't make it happen.

 

I'm not saying "remove the no torp","remove the no torp", "remove the no torp", im explaining those "underlying issues", how half of them is people that don't know how to play/setup their ships or pure egoistic issues and how about the other half there are ways to fix them. Neither explaining it and give rational solutions "will not make it happen"? So, then what will make it happen?

 

On the other hand Ny, saying "put a no torp option", "put a no torp option", "put a no torp option" made it happen. It's curious how some things "happen" and others "doesn't happen". If you want another example there you have what "happened" with that SS limit put on HAs. It looks like all "happens" in the same direction biasing the game each day more towards BB class and arcade-individualistic-monotasking-unidimensional game play, not only in WaW.

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