@TheHelmsman

+1 to your post, not quoting it since it wouled be to long :P


cheers
Megadone

@ GHHalley, Decafeiner, Stargazer

You guys do realize that Ramp4ge's suggestion will fix all of those issues, yes?

Battery power would reward patient, skillful sub players and encourage (okay, force) the
rush-dive-pwn-win bunch to actually learn game-related skills rather than simply
fictorying for their exp every single battle. Removing splash damage from HH and all
torpedoes, while also removing the "dud" mechanic from torps, would mean that nobody gets
rewarded for a missing and nobody gets punished in spite of succeeding (either a succesful
aim or a successful dodge).

The people like Jimmyawsome and Altsein who came in here saying that the SS nerf was too
much are partially correct: yes, the attempt to balance subs was flawed, but the simple
truth (which those people ignore, and which Ramp4ge has said multiple times already) is
that subs have been been totally flawed ever since they were first implemented. There's no
"easy" fix. Making subs what they should be (that is, a fun, challenging, unique, and
valuable aspect of the game) requires nothing less than a complete ground-up rethink of
their entire playstyle.

There have been lots of good suggestions, but Ramp4ge's ideas are definitely the best by
far. And even sub players should support them. Really, can any of you HONESTLY say that
sub gameplay pre-nerf was actually challenging and fun? This is a serious question. How
can one-dimensional gameplay possibly be fun? Why would you NOT want a more engaging and
dynamic experience?

The problem with the SS debate is that so few people have been willing to step back from
their own selfish interests as a BB or CV or SS player and take a look at the big picture.
Ramp4ge has done that. I honestly don't think I've seen a single self-professed SS
advocate do the same.

When SS234 came out and all the BB players whined, the SS crowd loved to counter it by
saying, "adapt." Well, now the tables have turned. A real solution to the SS problem is
being offered, here, but SS players (at least, the type of SS players that Altsein and
Jimmyawsome are representative of) apparently want nothing to do with it. Well, I've got
news for you. You guys need to adapt, too.


Altsein wrote: "We need more realism in NF for subs. "

No, we need more dynamics for subs. Trying to approach NavyField from a "realism"
standpoint is fail. If NF were realistic, aircraft (and therefore, CV) would completely
and utterly dominate everything else. Certain realities have to be stretched a bit (or
disregarded entirely) for the sake of gameplay and balance.

--Helms

''actually the sticky is littered with ramp4ge quoting everyone...he likes to fill up
posts with his ideas ''

Perfect Improved for Subs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyTk9S-
ZNQc&feature=PlayList&p=1703BBC3792E77C6&playnext_from=PL&index=2

The 45'' improved tehnic is aviable for CV and BB in NF,now all SS need to be
improved like of 1945 years,special KM exemple: with 26knots(submerged)type XXI
is much silence like US.Gato class with 8 knots;BOLD blinded DD sonar;Acustic torps
(lunched50-150mdepth)
folowing noise of propelors vessel,Tarnmatte coating is decrese detection 25-30%
sonar-radar.
We need more realism in NF for subs.

"Although, I did usually manage to kill a BB on each outing. Not BB5's or 4's, mind you,
since they usually carried too much bulge for me to knock through before they turned
and ran, but BB3's and below I could usually destroy. It'd be nice if I could actually -
survive- more than one or two attack runs and last until the end of the round. t the
moment, though, unless everything around me is dead, I don't see that happening. I
did not once get killed by DC or HH. Every time I died, I died from lack of air and
surfacing in the middle of several ships."

Quite a few problems concerning subs are actually indirectly summarized in there.
A: Subs are greedy, i'm sorry to say it but sinking lvl 60-80 BB's in a lvl 48 vessel with
at lvl crew is VERY good (id challenge you to attempt the same in a CA ;)) . There is no
problem whatsoever with a SS1-2 having a hard time sinking any BB4-6 , mainly with the
increase in bulge ( Big BB's gave up speed to survive against SS's , if an SS2 could than
still easily sink them than there would be one hell of a serious problem).

B: The lack of torp exp (which affects TW's, TB's And Subs) . I get the feeling that some
SS players are getting a bit 'cocky' (couldn't find any better word describing it) because
, even if they do a good amount of damage, they get relatively low exp . Results in them
asking for buffs to increase the amount of damage they can do.

C: Lack of any ASW incentives. You said it yourself , it was more often gun fire that
killed you because you ran out of air. And as long as ASW'ing doesn't get some incentives
that won't change. And therefor : ASW needs some darn fixing .

And before any real adjustment can be done to the subs themselves B and C should be fixed.

For the sub 1-2 could use a increase in turning force because once you go pass someone you
want to kill and you trying to turn it takes way too long to come around also air supply
can be increase too we would run out of air before we even get near anything to kill.

I will admit that I've seen a lot fewer subs since the last patch, and most of those
were SS3's or SS4's. Just for kicks, I decided to hop into my UK SS2 and mess around
for several games. Afterwards, I realized why I had stopped playing it in the first
place. For low-level subs, SS1 and SS2 with an at-level crew, you're basically on a
suicide mission. You don't have enough speed to get to the enemy fast enough, you
don't have enough air to survive more than one or two attacks, and as soon as you
pop up, you're stuck in the middle of the enemy lines and are soon reduced to
microscopic vapor as every ship in the vicinity blows you apart.

Although, I did usually manage to kill a BB on each outing. Not BB5's or 4's, mind you,
since they usually carried too much bulge for me to knock through before they turned
and ran, but BB3's and below I could usually destroy. It'd be nice if I could actually -
survive- more than one or two attack runs and last until the end of the round. t the
moment, though, unless everything around me is dead, I don't see that happening. I
did not once get killed by DC or HH. Every time I died, I died from lack of air and
surfacing in the middle of several ships.

Myeh. It wasn't exactly fun, but then again, I'm not the most experienced sub driver
in the world. I avoided the middle, usually went north or south, dove only when I
began to receive incoming fire, and engaged targets I thought I could reasonably kill.
Was still a tad frustrating. I got rather envious of the higher level subs I saw. They
could stay below the surface for much, much longer than I could, and were actually
able to attack several ships while remaining safe.

They, of course, still died when they finally surfaced, if any ships were near them. All
this has lead me to believe that, yes, Rampage is right. Sub gameplay needs a major
overhaul. =/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tdsL4kvp_I&feature=related%22

After a week of the nerf, here are some observations.

1. A lot less SS 1 2 3 in games.
2. The SS 4's are on a kamikaze mission and basically reduces to a torpedo with a crew.
3. ASW in game SS threat is completely eliminated.
4. No ASW and like the previous post the SS may be able to sink some ships.

BB and CV players have abandoned AA support and have had time to level up decent HH
gunners since the SS 4 came out. Now you might get a surprise salvo off before you are
immediately dispatched with HH. Some of the smarter BB have sonar equipped escorts
so SS is easy pickings. Why CV are allowed sonar is completely beyond belief.

Torpedo strength is already a complete JOKE. I fired 20 torpedoes from KM SS4 to sink
a H39. All were direct hits and none were duds. If there had been ANY competent ASW
for the enemy my SS would have been easily destroyed in the time it took to fire 5
salvos of 4 torps each. On a side note, can anyone explain why torp whores get NO dud
rate?

After spending a month or more playing SS before the nerf I have moved back in my
BB3. Plenty of support slots and plenty of speed to move out of range and repair and
get back into the battle. A luxury that my SS does not get.

Another thing to consider. A SS player has to be alert to threats from ALL enemy ships
whereas a BB3 only has to worry about equal or better BB's and outmanuvering an
occasional CV attack. Anything less is an easy kill or an easy fix.

The real power always has been and likely always will be with elite BB/CV. The nerf just
consolidated that power.

nerf DC Splash range.

The Dc's had to almost land on the sub for deal damages ,in the game ,you are at 3" on
your screen and you're immediatly sank. HH splash range is just fine imo ,set DC same as HH.

for Content everyone ,nerf Torps Splash Damages (sub and Ships)

Since ,like DC ,the torps had to HIT (and not just be close) for deal damages.


Time for SS to cry :P


and for Free3play post about the number of torps ,each tubes had 2-8 Torps to fire
(depends the Sub ,ofc ,you wont see as much torps in a Type-II than a U-Flak) so Your
point is a bit useless ,imo.

and for ramp4ge ,good to add a battery ,but the battery have to reload when you are
surfaced ,since all subs had a Diesel Engine than run surfaced and was Charging the
battery with accumulators and an Electric engine that was used Submerged ,but the Diesel
one was usable submerged ,just more noisy.

So may be add an Electric engine ,ok ,but also a "Switcher" (using Diesel Submerged makes
you more detectable ,even BB's with no sonar would detect your at close range)

Team NF,

There is a real possibility that because of the HE/SS change I will go from a player
who played most nights to someone who will only be online when my son wants to
play. I believe the HE change to SS has completely ruined SS play, both for the SS
driver and in a lesser sense for the other players of the game.

When I read that you were adjusting the HE damage on SS, I initially thought it
was a good thought, but now after playing it, my opinion is that it STINKS.

First of all, what I see.....I believe at this point a large BB can one-shot an SS1
and most SS2s. A SS3 or 4 can take 2-3 shots before being sunk. These shots can
occur at long range.
This change will force subs to begin diving at a farther distance than before.
Practically, it also means that as soon as a sub runs out of air on the enemy side of
the battle, the sub is dead. This will impact all, but possibly the elite players
because subs don't have enough support slots to have a high SD or enough
displacement for armor.

The change will basically eliminate sub play from the game. Why?

1) Subs are not allowed in Blitz -- they have to compete in GB against the better
players.

2) A SS1 is too slow to be able to get to the enemy completely submerged. Now
every SS1 is vulnerable to enemy surface fire before it even has a chance to inflict
damage. Without damaging the enemy, their is no real experience. Would you play
a ship which will take you forever to get experience? Its not worth it and we will
see no new players in the game playing SS. Your best option is to do a BO reset,
but because a SS relies upon the planesman and sonarman, will you spend your
precious support slots building up these units in a DD or CL?

3) For the experience SS driver (which I am one -- IJN SS BO 87) our play is now
reduced from something where skill counted back to pure luck. I now have
one air cycle to do as much damage as possible. As soon as I pop up, I die.
THIS IS NO FUN.
I used to find real pleasure into a cat and mouse game with the BBs, trying to
survive after my air ran out. You know, it was a rare game (1 in 20?) that I survived
until the end of the game, but the excitement of trying to survive made the game fun.
And with my need to go under water so much earlier, even the first engagement
is much shorter and not very much fun.

I believe some people will feel that SS's will compensate by staying closer to their
lines. We can't. Our torpedo range is too short and our speed is too slow. There
are only two ways a sub can hope to help his team win the game -- he either shoots
rushers coming into his lines or he has to rush the other line. And you must rush
right away. If you wait even a short time, your BB line will have either won or lost
the battle.

Does this make sense? I am curious if other players feel the same way?

I stand by my previous posts that a BB with escort and HHs had plenty of power
to counteract SS's and the problem is BBs either don't want to have to deal with
SS's or want the power to overcome them. Without SS's there is no counter balance
to BBs and their domination is bad for the entire gameplay. Once one team is up
one or two BBs there is no hope for the other team to win.

Now to the suggestion part of the post:

My TOP SUGGESTION:
1) Rather than increasing the hitting power of HE, reduce the hitting power of the
SS torpedos. At the same time, increase the capacity of every SS for torpedoes.
Now each SS has to hit a BB more times, making them less lethal. It also will help
ships without sonar, but with HH, to know where the SS's are so they can attack
them more effectively. You can tweak this change multiple ways -- by looking at the
reload speeds, by reducing or eliminating torp splash damage, etc.
This would greatly INCREASE the fun. Rather than losing a whole class of ships
from GBs, you are requiring that class to become more skillful and effective, without
making them more vulnerable. It would really increase the fun of the game.

Other suggestions:
2) Change the amount of damage HE does to subs. You might even consider giving
shorter range guns better relative hitting power than the longer range. This way,
the FF, DD, and CL's could feel a bigger role when the SS's pop up while helping the
subs decrease the range where we go underwater.

3) Create a new game which allows the lower level SS players to compete against
lower level players without the threat of BBs destroying them. Of course, at some
levels it is counterproductive to put a SS in a Blitz game where 90% of the players
have automatic sonar and can see the submerged SS's. But the lower level SS's
have to have somewhere to play without being blasted before they get off one
shot.

4) I thought about writing more -- there are a lot of tweaks which go into SS play,
but all of the other ones have side effects which would still need compensated for.
I would be interested in hearing other people's ideas.

Well, I've said my piece. There is a lot of emotion linked to subs and I hope people
really consider game play before they respond out of their own selfish desires.
Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.

GHHalley