As some people have said, killing a submarine with a purpose-setup ASW ship it not extremely
difficult. Perhaps the problem is getting more people to play ASW specifically.

Players who play FF and DD should be useful to the game, not just be cannon fodder until they can
level up to higher level CL/CA/BB.

At the same time, some complain that players who play FF and DD are newbies, so they would (a)
not know how to play ASW and/or (b) spend very little time playing as FF or DD.

So then, why not an incentive for experienced players to play these ASW ships? People have been
calling for better incentives for a very long time. You will hear always people saying ASW is not
worth it. Another suggestion I've been reading is higher level, purpose-built ASW FF or DD which
would also be very nice. Though you guys probably have no say in creating new ships since they
do that development in Korea, so I guess we're screwed on that suggestion.

Some people like me don't play ASW for money or exp. I run my ASW frigate-y with skeleton crew
neutral sailors. I do it for the joy of being a team player even if I don't get tangible rewards. Some
might agree with me when I say that kind of person isn't very common in NF. So some kind of
incentives are your best bet.

"If SS was "godlike" and "extreme" and "overpowered" then I think my win loss
percentage would look more like a BB5-6's."

I Never said SS was godlike, i said you clearly wanted that .

can we get back on subject??? come on guys suggestion forum not verbal fighting

speaking of which ss speed can on surface should be 40 knts, below 35 knts

DCs need a nerf bad, as an asw ship its way to easy to kill yourself

great post above added maybe the idea of sonar on the sub working only at
stopped to 3/4 speed even with scouts in the area

More air Yet more ways to lose it quicker ( deep dive ) (Fake expolsion? )

"I'm off to the bookstore to buy Glen Beck's book, Arguing With Idiots. Maybe I can
pick up some pointers. "

If you're looking for advice on how not to sound like an idiot, I wouldn't ask Glenn
Beck.

--Helms

"So the 2 HH buffs and the ASW 2 aiming buffs

WITH NO COUNTERS

is what you are hanging your hat on?

You are constantly referring to SS as "an invisible fictory boat" which exposes YOU as
biased against SS. You have opposed EVERYTHING I stand for and have an uncanny
ability to reach into the well for the most irrational objections to proposals that are
antithetical to your OVERHAUL mentality. For you, any fix is a negative because of your
opinion that SS system is flawed from it's inception."

We are proposing counters. That's why we want HH to be contact only, and DC to have a
dud/fail rate.

No, we are biased towards fairness and depth in game play. We aren't opposed to everything
you stand for; we are opposed to ships that aren't balanced. Also, any fix must be
negative for me too, because I have agreed with nearly EVERYTHING ramp4ge has said in this
post.

"So the 2 HH buffs and the ASW 2 aiming buffs

WITH NO COUNTERS

is what you are hanging your hat on?"

The counters were:

1) The HH are countered by (And the counter for) MORE POWERFUL SUBMARINES. The
HH buffs happened with the release of the next tier of submarine, as the counter for
that next tier of submarine.

2) The Aim buffs are still inferior to Aiming FCS. Aiming FCS is still superior to auto,
even after the buffs. So the whole crying about auto is absolutely pointless. Because
there is a better FCS available to everyone that blows auto FCS out of the water.

Not to mention all the PROPOSED COUNTERS that have been discussed in-depth in
this thread..

"You are constantly referring to SS as "an invisible fictory boat" which exposes YOU
as biased against SS."

No it doesn't..It exposes me as someone who wants balanced gameplay with depth
and substance, instead of "Rush+disappear+spam spacebar=WIN!", which is what
submarines are right now..

"You have opposed EVERYTHING I stand for and have an uncanny ability to reach into
the well for the most irrational objections to proposals that are antithetical to your
OVERHAUL mentality. For you, any fix is a negative because of your opinion that SS
system is flawed from it's inception."

Everything you stand for. Lol. Everyone else seems to disagree with everything else
you "stand for". Including submarine vets who have been playing submarines longer
then you've been playing the game. But you know, those things you stand for are on
solid ground! Except..they're not. Because the things you stand for are more sub
buffs, more ASW nerfs. You stand for an overpowered gameplay style that NOBODY
ELSE WANTS. And you wonder why people object to and oppose what you have to
say?

And where's my "hypothetical situation" opposing my proposal? I gave you one
supporting it, now I'm asking for one opposing it. Where is it?

There are fixes I could live with that don't include a total overhaul, but they aren't
ideal in my view, no. However, your proposals are nothing more then submarine
buffs, anti-sub countermeasure nerfs. Make subs easier, make ASW harder. And
that's something that NOBODY (except you) wants to live with. Surprise--nobody
likes your suggestions.

"We have a BB player that gets bored and plays SS telling an SS player that gets
bored and plays BB not to worry, it will all be balanced out in my TOTAL REVAMP."

The difference being I leveled my sub BOs. You bought your BB from the item shop
and stuck your submarine BO on it.

"1. SS need to be able to move during critical dive. Being froze is just dumb.
2. Critical dive loss rate needs BUFF of the same magical percentage as HE nerf.
3. Timers need to be extended for HH/DC.
4. Sonar precision needs nerf.
5. SS need same advantage of gun removal that surface ships have.
6. 40% more air for SS1-2 and 20% more air for SS 3-4."

That seems like a fictory boat to me.

1. Ok, but speed capped at 10 knots and you still lose DP.
2. No, but it wouldn't hurt to slightly (emphasis on slightly) lower the damage.
3. Only prem HH need longer timers.
4. No.
5. Something that I 100% agree on, but I don't really care if it is implemented or not.
6. No, but I'm all for SS1 getting more air now.

"When is the last time your BB or CV ran out of ammo or planes?"

Quite often actually. CV1-3 run out of planes easily, and CV45 can lose all of their
planes if there is a high level/highly skilled CV on the other side. BB1-4 (excluding PBB)
easily run out of shells.

Can I ask whats the HH aiming buff?, I supose you could count the recent auto buff
which gives you less exp but whats the other one?

"So the 2 HH buffs and the ASW 2 aiming buffs

WITH NO COUNTERS"

Would that be the suggestion that HH be contact only? Or perhaps it was the reduction
in DC damage? Or Rampage's proposed DC dud rate? Are you even reading the same
thread I am? What HH and ASW buffs are you referring to?