So the 2 HH buffs and the ASW 2 aiming buffs

WITH NO COUNTERS

is what you are hanging your hat on?

You are constantly referring to SS as "an invisible fictory boat" which exposes YOU as
biased against SS. You have opposed EVERYTHING I stand for and have an uncanny
ability to reach into the well for the most irrational objections to proposals that are
antithetical to your OVERHAUL mentality. For you, any fix is a negative because of your
opinion that SS system is flawed from it's inception.

We have a BB player that gets bored and plays SS telling an SS player that gets bored
and plays BB not to worry, it will all be balanced out in my TOTAL REVAMP.

An SS -must- be slower than they are currently. The fact that an SS can run down a BB
has been stated by many people to be unacceptable. It has been suggested in this
thread that as a trade-off for a lower speed, subs will gain better stealth. If they cannot
be seen, they can not be effectively attacked. If they can not be seen, they have a
better chance of approaching a target undetected. If they can not be seen, a new
depth of gameplay is brought into the picture.

This, however, does not seem to meet your definition of 'fair' or 'balanced'.

Nevertheless, you don't offer your own ideas on how to -balance- subs. You do not
want speed reduced. You do not want firepower reduced. You do not want, apparently,
-anything- reduced. You want buffs and additions without giving up anything in return.

The last time I ran out of shells or planes, by the way, was last night and today, in an
Alaska and Oyodo, respectively.

"I will state for the record one last time. Slowing SS down is unacceptable."

No it isn't. It's necessary if you:

1) Make them less detectable

2) Make ASW less effective

3) Make them stay invisible longer

Which is the general outcome of your suggestion.

All gains, no shortcomings.

"You want to force SS through your revamp meatgrinder and HOPE what comes out
is palatable to current SS players."

And why wouldn't it? I've given you the hypothetical scenario you asked for (And the
self-proclaimed "best SS player in the game agree'd that it wasn't as hypothetical as
it was factual), yet you've yet to give any real reason as to why it wouldn't work.
Other then your continual opinion that "Slowing down subs is unacceptable", despite
the massive amount of gain they'll get for slowing down. Nope! Unacceptable! But
they need to be able to stay under longer, be harder to detect and harder to kill
once detected! All for zero loss and ultimate gain!

Riight..

"My proposals are small tweaks that can be taken in steps and tested in the game."

Your proposals are a series of sub buffs/asw nerfs that will do nothing but make
subs as overpowered under the surface as they were above it. Just as fast, harder
to see, harder to kill. While trading NOTHING for these abilities.

"No one will continue with the SS line post nerf. Fortunately for me, I had built up
enough crew and dive time to at least make it into the battle."

Despite people still playing them now and posting 130k+ games. Right?

"So instead of 2 salvos you can disable a SS in 1. By disable I mean wrecked to the
point that the engines are damaged. So then we wait patiently for you to finish us off
or we are out of air or out of torps and left to sit around and wait for the end."

And the fix for this is to give them more time submerged. However, you cannot give
them more time submerged without slowing them down. Because more time
submerged going just as fast as they are now, tied in with your "Make ASW useless"
suggestions are just going to take submariens from being overpowered to being
overpowered and invisible 90% of the time..And THAT is unacceptable.

"When is the last time your BB or CV ran out of ammo or planes?"

Quite frequently, actually. Of course, if you had actually played anything other then
an Andrea Doria, you'd know this..

I will state for the record one last time. Slowing SS down is unacceptable.

You want to force SS through your revamp meatgrinder and HOPE what comes out is
palatable to current SS players.

My proposals are small tweaks that can be taken in steps and tested in the game.

No one will continue with the SS line post nerf. Fortunately for me, I had built up
enough crew and dive time to at least make it into the battle. So instead of 2 salvos you
can disable a SS in 1. By disable I mean wrecked to the point that the engines are
damaged. So then we wait patiently for you to finish us off or we are out of air or out of
torps and left to sit around and wait for the end.

When is the last time your BB or CV ran out of ammo or planes?

***EDIT Nothing left now except to insinuate about past posts? Pathetic. If it wasn't
for my objections every mouse in NF will be scurrying off the end of the dock as your
pipe screeches out a tune.

I know well of Jimmy's past, and anyone can see it by simply searching his name in this
sub-forum. However, I want the input of someone who has only played submarines to
any significant degree, which is why part of me hoped Jimmy would straighten out his
act and give valuable input. It seems tho that the only input someone who has only
played subs are buffs. Make it easier to play while not trading anything for that. And
that's fairly typical.

Just about everything else in this game is a catch-22. You gain something by losing
something else. Except submarines. And if we follow Jimmy's suggestions, they'll
continue to gain while not losing anything.

That is not balance. That is going from one blatant overpowered gameplay style to
another.

Anyone else beginning to think that Jimmy is just a troll that we all fell for, hook line
and sinker? I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but this is just getting ridiculous.

@Jimmy

"You can't say "yea you can have what you want as long as you accept more
constraints" because your PERCEPTION is that SS are still overpowered. "

Yes, sure. Take the one point from my long and detailed post that you agreed with
and ignore the rest. It's also -your- perception that subs are either fine, or need a
buff. Which is all you've been suggesting. They are not "Making subs more playable".
They are buffs, plain and simple. Being able to move while crit dived? Less ASW
damage? Harder to detect? With no net trade-off such as less speed or firepower?

It's fairly easy to see where your motivations lie. I don't want subs to be nerfed into
the ground and made useless. Neither does Rampage, I'm sure. He's suggesting a
complete change in playstyle. I suggested tweaks that would work within the
confines of the current system. I don't think either of us ever said anything like
"Yeah, subs need to have a speed cap of 10 knots underwater and it should take
every torp a sub carries to kill a battleship. Oh, and every ship should be given
sonar." Why? Because that wouldn't be fair, and doesn't make for good gameplay.

"I have stated what was fair to give back for what was taken away in the name that
our "natural environment" is under water.

I could care less if I surfaced at all, but the surface advantage has been stripped
with NO concessions on the level of assault still available below surface."

On the previous page, you said something to the amount of "All I needed to do was
check my tactics and I was back in business."

So what additional concessions are needed? You're obviously not hurting, or you
wouldn't have been "back in business".

However, the suggestions you make will make you damned near untouchable..

With NO change to your playstyle.

That's unacceptable. If you want to be able to go across the map undetected and
untouchable, then you need to pay the piper. You need to lose something for that
gain.

Slowing down to reserve your ability to:

1) Stay under water longer.

2) Remain less visable to SONAR.

Is one such trade-off. And it's a trade-off that real submarines had to make.

If you want to make submarines go just as fast submerged as they do now, while
giving them more time submerged, while nerfing their ability to be seen, and nerfing
ASW weapons, and buffing your ability to escape asw weapons, then the overall
effect is a HUGE buff to submarines with ZERO tradeoff.

The "HE" nerf (Even tho it wasn't an HE nerf) brought things into perspective. NOW
we can work on balance. And your suggestion is not balance. It's "Make subs more
effective, make their counters less effective."..with no tradeoff.

Making something MORE playable is NOT a buff.

I can only debate one of you at a time 1 wants speed nerf 1 wants torp nerf 1 wants
total revamp of the SS.

I have stated what was fair to give back for what was taken away in the name that
our "natural environment" is under water.

I could care less if I surfaced at all, but the surface advantage has been stripped with NO
concessions on the level of assault still available below surface.

Agreements get done with comprimise. You can't say "yea you can have what you want
as long as you accept more constraints" because your PERCEPTION is that SS are still
overpowered.

I am exhausted. If past performance predicts future actions SDE will do something that
we all will be dissatisfied with.

This thread is a bughunt, man. A bughunt!

@Jimmy

Yes, simply because a majority of players believe something is overpowered does not
necessarily mean it is. However, it -does- mean that a majority of players -perceive-
it that way. Judging by the amount of threads on the subject, many, many people
believe subs need adjustment, and not by giving them additional benefits.

What has been suggested in this thread is the submarines in general need extensive
rewrite and gameplay changes. They should be oriented more towards a stealth-
based mechanic that would give them a better depth of gameplay and a more
strategic feel. Subs were not meant to rush forward and spam torpedoes. That's the
job of Kitas. Subs are selective in their targets, preferring to attack the largest or
most important ship possible. DD's, FF's, and CL's are the primary opposition.

Therefore, subs should have the ability to sneak past the screening DD's and CL's
and deliver an unsuspecting blow to a high priority target. However, if caught, they
should be placed in a difficult and disadvantageous position that will most likely
result in death. A system should be in place that allows a decent opportunity for the
sub to achieve its primary goal, but also offers challenges.

Rampage's battery system does this. It switches sub gameplay from Fictory to
stealth, rewarding those able to avoid detection. Additional tweaks to sonar, such as
the ones I've mentioned, as well as changes in ASW armament should change the
game for the better and make it more tactical.

Here's both a good and bad scenario:

Good) At the beginning of the game, a submarine heads north at full pace on the
surface. Once shells start incoming, the sub dives and slows its speed to half,
heading towards the direction of the enemy. As it sees DD's approaching, it slows
further, drifting silently underneath and managing to not appear on sonar. Once
past, the sub speeds up again in order to approach the BB line. It halts in place and
fires a spread of torps, attacking its target who has -no- warning whatsoever. Since
it travelled at a slow pace it has plenty of air to avoid popping up at an inopportune
moment and being blown to bits, and is therefore able to constantly pour torps into
the side of a confused BB. As it turns to flee, the subs speeds up, keeping stride until
its dead, slowing down and turning to another target after it explodes.

Bad) At the beginning of the game, the same heads straight down the center. It
dives as shells start incoming, but fails to slow. DD's then pick it up on sonar and
start pasting it with depth charges. It crash dives and manages to evade, but is
vastly short of air as it spots a BB. The BB, however, saw it coming due to the fact
that one of the destroyers carried a sonarman (Per my changes), and turns to run.
Out of air, the SS is forced to surface and dies to a couple of broadsides.

It adds a new dimension to gameplay that Navyfield sorely needs.

Then don't be seen.

The general idea is not to NERF ASW BUFF SUBS, the general idea is to balance the
gameplay and to give submarine gameplay depth. Substance. A tangible feeling.
Something it severely lacks because it was rushed and badly implemented.

Every suggestion you've made has been "NERF ASW BUFF SS", whether it be an
indirect or a direct nerf/buff. Each suggestion you've made has been blatantly self-
serving, And that's just not going to fly if you want your suggestions taken seriously.

If the only entertainment you can find in submarine gameplay is to rush and spam
torps at the first biggest target you find, or to hose down surface targets with small
arms fire, then that just further proves my point.