Here's a question for you.

Most SS guns weigh between 5 and 10 tons. How much do the U-FLAK's guns weigh?
And how much would you actually benefit from being able to remove them?

I've got a level 59 seaman with 59 vets that weighs 226 tons. A level 91 engineer with
104 vets that weighs 376 tons.

Sure. Give the ability for subs to remove their weapons. I agree. But what's the point if
the entire weapons group is only going to save you 30 tons?

I will not comment on anything but these 6 items in any further discussions.

1. SS need to be able to move during critical dive. Being froze is just dumb.
2. Critical dive loss rate needs BUFF of the same magical percentage as HE nerf.
3. Timers need to be extended for HH/DC.
4. Sonar precision needs nerf.
5. SS need same advantage of gun removal that surface ships have.
6. 40% more air for SS1-2 and 20% more air for SS 3-4.

What personal attack?

I give a fact, you state it's an anti-sub bias. In essence, an anti-you bias, since you
are the one defending the submarines.

There's no personal attack there. Stop playing the wounded martyr. Nobody buys it.

A re-write would be time-consuming, but worth it in the long run. Building on an
already broken system is just going to keep them broken forever. Submarines were
poorly thought out and rushed into the game, and now we see the results of that
poor planning, just like I've been saying all along. Funny how that happens. The only
way to fix submarines with a fix that's actually going to withstand the test of time is
a re-write.

You can retrofit an old bridge, but it's not going to survive an earthquake as well as a
new one.

I don't see why your so objective over a playstyle that would actually be much more
in-depth and fun then the one that is currently offered.

"Almost 3 quarters of the playerbase says something's overpowered, and it's clearly
an anti-you bias."

Nice personal attack. Way to win your argument since it is so weak the only arrow in
your quiver is an insult.

Just stick to the facts. It's funny. When I am on point you change your attack to SDE
and the whole system. Let's do some tweaking to what we have now instead of a total
re-write that is time consuming, and bound to yield unwanted and unintended playability
issues.

@megadone

More personal attacks and suggestions on improving the way I play?

jimmyawsome wrote:

*"Because 72% of the community said SS needed to be nerf'd."

Thank you, for your correct assesment of the anti-sub bias in NF.

I still stand by the 6 things that SS need to be as playable as they were pre-patch.
Right now there is a 100% chance that a SS will be killed when scanned by sonar or
is caught on the surface. That is just not realistic in a game setting. Surface ships
can manuver in and out of danger with relative ease and shoot, take damage,
retreat repair the whole game. SS never get that chance.*

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--------------------------------------------------------------

just cuz majority see's the mistakes in Sub's doesn't mean ther anti-sub bias......

as for your comment...
it's your foult for choosing to fictory...nobody is stoping you from taking your time,
nobody is stoping you from TURNING OROUND and get behinde BB line and re-fill
your AIR...

if you make poor judgement call's as if your gona make it or not, is not a Sub
problem but more in your play-style.

I really suggest you try and get a BB to back you up while you push to enemy lines,
you'll see how effective you can be O.o...

however subs need re-adjusting in general, including balancign them out betwin
nations as well -.-. we all know subs are not fine so I don't why are you judging
everybody here..

cheers
Megadone

Almost 3 quarters of the playerbase says something's overpowered, and it's clearly
an anti-you bias.

It's everyone else that's the problem. Clearly.

As for the rest of your text, I agree. Like I said, you don't see anyone here saying
"Subs are fine!", because we all know otherwise. I simply don't think building on the
same flawed, depth-less, poorly thought out system is going to be the fix for
anything. When you have more depth, you have more "wiggle room" for adjustment
without farking up the entire system.

"...and try to shoot a fruitfly out of the sky. "

When that fruit fly is denying you the ability to not be seen, yes. They are FLAK guns,
afterall.

"Because 72% of the community said SS needed to be nerf'd."

Thank you, for your correct assesment of the anti-sub bias in NF.

I still stand by the 6 things that SS need to be as playable as they were pre-patch. Right
now there is a 100% chance that a SS will be killed when scanned by sonar or is caught
on the surface. That is just not realistic in a game setting. Surface ships can manuver in
and out of danger with relative ease and shoot, take damage, retreat repair the whole
game. SS never get that chance.

@freeplay

You think I am going to load 2 crewmen and try to shoot a fruitfly out of the sky.
Nevermind that the gun is completely useless against all other aircraft.

"SIX things needed to give back some survivablilty that was removed post nerf. Don't
even attempt to pose the argument that SS got what they deserved and now
everything is right. NO other ship class would tolerate the same nerf so why should
SS?"

Because 72% of the community said SS needed to be nerf'd.

As for your list, I'd hate to say it (Not really) but I told you so. How long have I been
saying "Submarines were badly implemented"? Quite a while now. You change one
thing in their overall "balance" and you get the whole system being screwed up.
That's because they have no depth and are grossly oversimplified. The fact that they
can still do huge amounts of damage even post-nerf is just further proof of this.

That's what happens when a class gets put into a game that relies on being
overpowered to be successful. NF's not the first game that that's happened to. SDE
can either give SS gameplay some tangibility, or they can keep band-aiding the hell
out of them until everyone stops playing them all together.

It's going to be a fun ride seeing where they go from here. I don't think anyone
that's posted here has said "Everything is fine, leave them as they are."..So don't act
like the wounded martyr. Nobody buys it.

@Jimmy

"As an unintended consequence of the HE patch, the KM SS4 has 2 gun slots and 3 20mm guns
that can't be used."

2 things,

1. The "FLAK" gun is also capable of being used as AA, meaning that if you are running you
can take down scouts so they cant see you as you refill your air.
2. The "Useless" slots can be easily utilized, put reps or rests there, increase your SD
increase your Repair rate.

I have never used a gun on a sub, yet the sailor slot is always filled.

jimmyawsome wrote:

*Yea, my invisible fictory boat.

That has to pick out of the sky which is HH and which are shells.
That takes damage to avoid damage.
That is speed capped at 34 knots submerged and room for 1 engy.
That has to have enough crew to fire 3 salvos of 4 torpedoes to sink a BB before the
twice-as-fast ASW get there an splatter HH in a 3 inch radius of where I am.
That takes 20 seconds at cruise to turn 180 degrees.
That can only attack from 0 or 180 degrees.
That has torpedos that are the shortest range of any weapon except DC.
That has weapons to sink it for sale at the NF STORE.
That have FF and DD sinking it with FREE sonar.
That has to try to sink a CV flag with sonar and sustained overheat of 40 knots.
That post nerf is spotted on the surface and vaporized by BB half the map away.

Yea dude, smells like.....fictory.*

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 - thet ONLY applys to Prem HH's, wich YES do need a NERF
2 - it's called presure, BB's burn for half of battle, while sub's only burn for what?
1min? sorry but critical dive dmg should be ther, as for it's dmg, I belive lowering it
for about 20% shouled be fine...
3 - speed cap is to high PERIOD, subs aren't ment for racing, ther sillent patiant
killers, if you wan't speed play a FF or a DD. Sub and speed doesn't go well in same
sentence, not thoes ANY comon logic.
4 - 3 full salvos? yeah I'm sure your just another KM SUB player who doesn't BOTHER
to aim, if you hit all your torps, you can sink a BB in 2 salvos(8torps) or in 3rd
(10torps) if it's heavy on buldge. FYI Sub is the only ship line wich doesn't have
spread issues, how about you compare thet O.o...
5 - sure.... and your turning circel is big as an apple, while other ships need 3x more
room....and turn slower.
6 - so you wan't torps to go from SIDE of sub and hit something IN front of you... LOL
you have the WHOLE sea to manuver, while other ships don't... as in crossing or
beeing shot at...
7 - true, but your 1 torps does oround 18k dmg(KM), while other ships at your lvl
have what? 2k-3k per shell? nice...
8 - true, and it shouled be removed all together, prem wepons are lame...
9 - FF and DD's can sink other ship's as well, so whats your point? as for free sonar,
I agree you shouled have a sonarman or no sonar for you, PERIOD
10 - thets where your wrong, you don't have to do ANYTHING...it's your choice, FYI
your play style of Fictory and sinking flag show's why you OPPOSE speed nerf so
much, guess it's hard for you to acctually TRY and play the game insted of go
>>>>> way and sink something....
11 - your point beeing? so are other ships, wich have 3x more deck and belt armor
then your sweet sub, and yet your sub still lives... it's like comparing a brick wall to
wooden wall and theny cry why doesn't my wood wall last longer? start using some
comon logic -.-

and yeah it does smell like fictory, to much and needs re-adjusting.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

gettafa1 wrote:

*The balance between subs and surface ships needs to be restored by reducing the
effectiveness of HE, HH and DC's to their original levels along with increasing the
reload time.

The speed of subs is fine but being out turned by a BB is ridiculous, so increase a
subs turning force would go someway to level the playing field.*

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

let me guess... Tadada on 2nd account, or is it 3rd one now?

1 - in other words, make subs be the prime ships and kill everything in NF?
surface balance is FINE now...wich is POST-PATCH, effectivness of HE is just fine to
sub's, YES HH and DC need a dmg nerf...ONLY the prem HH's need incrised trigger
time, not DC nor normal HH's...

sub's aren't ment for fictorypowningomfgIpowneeverything in NF. Sooner you get
some common logic runing in your head, you'll notice thet to.

2 - LMAO, just LMAO..... Sub's are hunting BB's not the other way oround, SPEED IS
NOT FINE, subs where NEVER a speedy ship class anywhere, and as soon as SDE
starts listening NOR will they be in NF, sub's need a SPEED CAP PERIOD

as for BB turning faster...just proven you have NO clue about anything, how about
you try and get a beter engine and try comparing your turning then..... you'll be
suprised how Sub's owne....but hey why try anythign if you can come here and post
garbage O.o

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

jimmyawsome wrote:

*After reading all the posts let me offer this point.

Post patch SS are completely useless on the surface. As an unintended consequence
of the HE patch, the KM SS4 has 2 gun slots and 3 20mm guns that can't be used.
The gunners? No big deal I can sell them, trade them, or use them on another ship.
The slots? No big deal I can leave them empty for weight and speed or use any
combination of repairers or restorers.

What I can't do, is remove the guns to gain some weight like every other surface
ship. What I can't do, is move during a critical dive. Which is a curious, to borrow a
phrase from Rampage, "game mechanic."What I can't do, because of precise sonar
location, is escape out of a shower of HH. Which is another curious game mechanic.
Most of you are under the assumption that critical dive is some mythical superhero.
In just 30 seconds my sub loses 45% of its DP. Still another curious game mechanic.
Under the surface I am already 6 knots slower than any Capial ship and 10 to 25
knots slower than a non-Capital suface ship.
Another curious game mechanic is that SDE never told us EXACTLY how much the SS
was nerfed.

SIX things needed to give back some survivablilty that was removed post nerf. Don't
even attempt to pose the argument that SS got what they deserved and now
everything is right. NO other ship class would tolerate the same nerf so why should
SS?

1. SS need to be able to move during critical dive. Being froze is just dumb.
2. Critical dive loss rate needs BUFF of the same magical percentage as HE nerf.
3. Timers need to be extended for HH/DC.
4. Sonar precision needs nerf.
5. SS need same advantage of gun removal that surface ships have.
6. 40% more air for SS1-2 and 20% more air for SS 3-4.

I will not comment on anything but these 6 items in any further discussions.*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

subs have no place beeing on surface PERIOD.
the guns on subs in general are a dumb idea, so yeah they shouled be removed, as
for sonar...how about you start beeing more observent? you allready stated you
fictory to flag and sink it... how about you acctually TRY and play a sub, be observant
sink in-coming small ships or ASK for cover from BB's? hell I got my back covered
dozen's and dozens of times...how about you acctually press critical dive in time
insted of taking a smoke break before you press it, once DC's are droped...

only ASW wich is hard/mostlly imposible to avoide are Prem HH's....as for speed
SUBS SHOULED BE SLOW PERIOD, your obviously playing in a wrong ship if you
wanted speed... sig

all other class's all ready got a but load of nerfs under ther belt...subs don't...I belive
this was ONLY the 2nd nerf subs got, mind you 1st one was a joke....subs need a lot
more nerfs and re-adjustemnts till they are where they shouled be in the 1st place...
wich is a silent and patiant killer.

1 - hmm, sure...let subs move at 3knots while in critical dive....hey your invisable to
EVERYTHING while in critical so be slow as a snail PERIOD
2 - no it doesn't, if it was then sub's wouled REPAIR rather then suffer dmg while in
critical dive.... however a lil smaller dmg from critical dive woulden't be a bad idea..
3 - NO, only Prem HH's need trigger incrised, rest are fine
4 - sure, all so make sub's blinde untill a ships comes in sonar range while your at it...
(sarcasem)
5 - removing guns in general wouled be a beter idea
6 - sure, if they get a SPEED CAP, no speed cap no boosted AIR, PERIOD

3/4 of your comments where whining and not suggestions or arguments opposing
an idea, so yeah it wouled be refreshing to se you acctually try and post something
worthwhile reading...

---------------------------------------------------------------

@Sweeny
well yeah they have 4 front only....ok so lets make it on a larger scale comparison...
compare T4 IJN sub dmg output from 50 games, then compare 50 games dmg output
from KM T4, you will see KM T4 has greater or equal dmg as IJN T4 overall, you can
thank duds for the.....ther are dozen if not more games out of 50, where 3/4 of your
fiered torps wouled go dud.

FYI for this to make any meaning, fire same ammount of torps, to same type of
ship/setup/player while ther not moving....wich wouled garantee KM each hit...while
IJN woulden't.

FYI I'm not attacking you, just showing you on a larger scale, KM subs dmg output is
well within balance, however I'm all for torp dmg reduction if they nerf dud rate as
well :)

EDIT: dang this is a wall of txt lol, sorry RZ :/

cheers
Megadone