As expressed, a crit diving sub can avoid damage from DC's altogether and also
disappears off of sonar. When the sub reemerges from crit dive, they will be
stationary, and will therefore still be quite difficult to detect under the new battery
system. Now, most ASW ships will OH towards a sub at the last moment in order to
reduce the chance that they will be torped. This means they will not be able to detect
the sub for a short while with sonar, and usually will circle the subs last known
position and continually drop DC's in hopes they'll either a) Hit the sub before they
can complete their crit dive, b) Force the sub to stay in crit dive for far too long, or c)
Catch the sub as they are reemerging.

Either way, if a sub manages to escape into a crit dive, there's a decent chance the
DD will accidentally begin to wander away from where they lost contact with the sub,
and it will be able to escape or, worse, torp the DC'ing ship. If a DD has to -stop- on
top of a sub in order to have a chance of detecting it after it reappears from crit dive,
not only will it be very vulnerable to the enemy in the area, but they will suffer
massive damage from self-inflicted splash from depth charges. I'm fine with reducing
DC damage, but they shouldn't dud, and they most certainly should not cause
damage to the ship dropping them.

I'm all for HH being contact only, but ramp4ge, care to increase the accuracy because the
spread with low level gunners is horrendous.

Also, I'm am fine with DC having a 50% dud, considering it takes 2 seconds to reload....

Rampage, The problem I see with your DC idea is that they are already so powerful that
people crit dive the instant they hear the splashes. 50% dud rate isn't going to change
that. I think it needs to be combined with a) an increased drop rate, b) decreased damage,
and c) decreased splash radius. Duds only matter if subs think that they might survive
enough of them that taking the damage is worth it if it lets them get their torps off.



Another idea re sonar and ASW: If we've already agreed that SS detectability should be
speed dependant, ASW detection should be as well. Not to the same extent (obviously, they
should have some detection at full speed), but say, full speed ASW ship cuts detection
range in half of whatever the ss speed range would have been (and OH still = no sonar).
combine that with lower powered spammable DCs, and you have a far more fun and fluid
SS/ASW dynamic. It would also encourage far more teamwork on the ASW end of things.

Honestly, jimmyawsome, either you are TOTALLY missing what Ramp4ge is trying to
say, or you simply don't want to hear it. Seems to me more like the latter. You're
pissed off that your precious submarines got a much-needed adjustment, though I
really fail to see why. You said yourself that you still "own" even after the nerf.
Obviously it didn't make things *that* much worse for you, so, really, what are you
complaining about?

Why are you so vehemently opposed to this idea that will make subs more
engaging, more dynamic, and and more interesting to play? Are you simply afraid to
adapt your playstyle, just as I'm sure you told the BB players to do? Or do you
genuinely desire a dive-fictory-pwn-WIN ship that requires no skill to play?

Ramp4ge's idea is by far the best one I've seen. He's right. The implementation of
subs was fundamentally flawed from the get-go, and they need to be re-thought
from the ground up if the community is to accept them. I'd suggest that you take a
step back from the point of view of a sub-only or sub-mostly player and look at this
issue from the point of view of the 72% of forum-going players who believe that
subs need to be revamped in one way or another.

--Helms

That's understandable. I thought having the random chance on DCs (Emulating
exploding above or too far below the sub) would be a somewhat neat mechanic, with
the DCs that do hit right and dodge the dud chance doing a pretty significant amount of
damage.

I'm very, very "Counter-1-shot" play-style. I hate 1-shot gameplay in any way, shape or
form. Even in ASW. Lol.

Contact only HH's I can agree with. The DC dud rate...eh, not so much. As it stands, it's
already challenging and dangerous enough simply to maneuver your ship close enough
to a sub. It's a trick of pretending that you don't see the sub there, trying to lure him
into a false sense that you have no interest in him, drifting in close enough, then
turning and gunning for him at the last minute. More often than not, subs shoot at any
DD's near them on general principle. Under your proposal, a sub will already be difficult
to detect. When detected, it should face some serious opposition.

Not only would it make him harder to detect, but it would make him harder to kill since
HHs would be contact-only and DCs would have a 50% dud rate..

@Jimmy

Then if you're -trying- to say subs don't need to be nerfed, posting about your -best-
games isn't exactly the brightest idea. It would make more sense to post about your -
worst- games. Saying "Hey guys! I did all these awesome things in a sub! Don't nerf
them!" Is more than a bit incongruous and just smacks of you trying to backpeddle on
what you posted.

And HH/DC would not be as effective as you claim, since Rampage's suggestions would
make it more difficult for DD's/FF's to detect you. If they can't detect you, they can't
attack you. It would change sub gameplay to be more stealth based, as it should be.

"SS speed is what gets me out of trouble and if SS is speed nerfed HH/DC will be even
more effective than they are now."

Except they wouldn't be able to see you because with the lower speed/longer loiter
time would come a massive reduction in Sonar detection range.

megadone i apprieciate your logical argument, however your fact base is weak, you
said that mn fires 6 torps and 3-4 hit and km fires 6 and all 6 hit, however maybe a MN
ss can shoot 6 torps=aprx=3-4 hits so lots of dmg, km ss4 and below fires a max of 4
and usually gets 2 or prob 3 hits at the outside 4 however this will never equal the
damage done by the MN (or ijn and the case may be) torps

if battery is done right it is a good idea however i see little wrong with air amounts on
higher lvl ss (ss1-2 need bout 15%and 10% more respectively)

torp rld time needs maybe a small (say 10%) time increase

bulge may not need to be less effective over all, with that said targets should take a
larger percentage of dmg earlier (say 300 dmg from 100 bulge)