"Another curious game mechanic is that SDE never told us EXACTLY how much the SS
was nerfed."

Well, I think I know what they did: They just disabled the SD for subs all together.
When I first tested a post-patch KM SS4 (900SD) against my L2, i got 14k attack at point
blank and was like: "What, I thought they take more damage now?" Then I fired the second
salvo, the SS died and i got an additional 4k attack. So that makes 18k attack from a ship
with about 18k DP.

After reading all the posts let me offer this point.

Post patch SS are completely useless on the surface. As an unintended consequence of
the HE patch, the KM SS4 has 2 gun slots and 3 20mm guns that can't be used. The
gunners? No big deal I can sell them, trade them, or use them on another ship. The
slots? No big deal I can leave them empty for weight and speed or use any combination
of repairers or restorers.

What I can't do, is remove the guns to gain some weight like every other surface ship.
What I can't do, is move during a critical dive. Which is a curious, to borrow a phrase
from Rampage, "game mechanic."
What I can't do, because of precise sonar location, is escape out of a shower of HH.
Which is another curious game mechanic.
Most of you are under the assumption that critical dive is some mythical superhero. In
just 30 seconds my sub loses 45% of its DP. Still another curious game mechanic.
Under the surface I am already 6 knots slower than any Capial ship and 10 to 25 knots
slower than a non-Capital suface ship.
Another curious game mechanic is that SDE never told us EXACTLY how much the SS
was nerfed.

SIX things needed to give back some survivablilty that was removed post nerf. Don't
even attempt to pose the argument that SS got what they deserved and now everything
is right. NO other ship class would tolerate the same nerf so why should SS?

1. SS need to be able to move during critical dive. Being froze is just dumb.
2. Critical dive loss rate needs BUFF of the same magical percentage as HE nerf.
3. Timers need to be extended for HH/DC.
4. Sonar precision needs nerf.
5. SS need same advantage of gun removal that surface ships have.
6. 40% more air for SS1-2 and 20% more air for SS 3-4.

I will not comment on anything but these 6 items in any further discussions.

"The balance between subs and surface ships needs to be restored by reducing the
effectiveness of HE, HH and DC's to their original levels along with increasing the
reload time.

The speed of subs is fine but being out turned by a BB is ridiculous, so increase a
subs turning force would go someway to level the playing field. "

What balance? I'm sorry but if what you suggest is done , with no other tweaks involved,
you'll simply make the SS overpowered beyond imagination. (giving ships of a lower lvl a
super-advantage over High Lvl'ed BB's isn't "lvl'ing the playing field" ...)

The balance between subs and surface ships needs to be restored by reducing the
effectiveness of HE, HH and DC's to their original levels along with increasing the
reload time.

The speed of subs is fine but being out turned by a BB is ridiculous, so increase a
subs turning force would go someway to level the playing field.

To go along with the "silent running" style:

Like we have a hotkey for submerge/critical dive, simply make one for "silent running"
that auto-adjusts speed to an appropriate speed while submerged. Then the user can choose
to OH or not.

Say .... "#" key is for silent running...simply hit it while submerged to maintain a low
speed/low battery movement.

Subs NEED to stay submerged and be slow. they NEED to be patient killers, stalking their
prey. If you make them "too" fragile to surface AND asw dmg, compensate by making them
alot harder to detect, and able to stay under during the majority of a battle.

SS1-2 should not have the same amout of air/battery power as a ss3/4. Kongo guns dont
hit as hard as Yammy guns do they ?

Only if they get close, and only if they really -are- equipped with DC's. Whenever I play
sub, I always keep an eye out for suspicious DD's and nail them with a couple of torps if
they head in my direction. Getting close enough to an aware sub is a challenge unless
they are already busy engaging a BB or somesuch, by which point it's a little late to
help. Some subs kill DD's and FF's just out of principle. One or two torps is all it takes. 8-
10 DC's should spell just as much doom for the sub if they're close enough.

I've already stated that I think DCs should be spammable, as they were IRL. I also think
DDs should be able to carry far more of them. I DON'T think the work in game right now,
because as I mentioned, if a sub is found and a DC equipped DD or FF is nearby, it's
basically game over for them.

So, ASW shouldn't be able to kill subs? Unless you're willing to have 1 second reload
time for DC's, only having them do 10% of their current damage would gut them as
effective anti-sub weapons. Right now, it takes, what, 6 DC's to kill a sub, yes? DD's can
carry about, eh, 30 charges or so, I think? It's safe to say that not all DD's can carry
enough launchers to drop 6 at once. Dropping 2 at a time is more common, they all
don't always hit, and they're continually dropped while a sub is crit dived (dove? diven?
). Going through half your depth charges or more attempting to kill one sub is fairly
common. Having them only do 10% of their current damage and dud half the time
is...well, far too much, I think.

I agree that it shouldn't be a one-shot kill, but significant damage should be done to a
sub if a DD is circling above him dropping DC's.

Actually rampage, I think DCs should do maybe 10% of their current damage. Combine that
with your dud rate, and even if you can drop them faster, they no longer are the "gg no
re" weapon of the game that they are right now. As it is, the instant a DD with DCs knows
where you are, unless you get help from a BB or the DD makes a stupid mistake, your game
is essentially over.

Yeah, I thought I said in the original proposal that the spread on HHs would have to
be increased quite a bit, because yeah..their spread at-level blows..Lol.

But I hear you on the DCs, and that actually sounds about right. But with that
condition they're going to need to be nerf'd a bit, down to about 75% of what they're
capable of now.

The end result of either would be the same. Less damage to the sub per salvo of
DCs, and the DCs reload in like 2 seconds anyway. I don't like the idea of DCs going
over the side being game-over for the sub.

The "dud" chance was more to emulate "guestimating" where the depth of the sub.
Sure, in NF, we know the sub can only be 3 depts. Surfaced, normal, crit. But it was
always a guessing game when dropping depth charges. Sometimes you'd be spot-on
and nail it, sometimes you could throw DCs at it all day and it'd slip away. And that's
why I thought the dud chance was cool. It'd give the simulation of "guessing" the
depth of the sub. And the DCs would still do enough damage singly (Since 6 can 1-
shot a sub) that it'd most certainly hurt.

At the end of the day, DCs are going to need to be nerf'd to not do quite as much
damage, or we can keep the damage and reduce the "hit" rate.

And no, they shouldn't damage the ship dropping them. Self-TKs suck.