You seem to have a confusion about what is going to be done to subs. Subs are not going to be nerfed, they will be balanced.
In a nerf, everything gets lowered... in a balance, some things get nerfed and others get buffed.

For example (and this are just ideas so you can get the picture):
- if HE damage gets lowered, number of torps will be increased.
- if speed is lowered, underwater time will be increased.
- if they reduce the duds to 0 (a buff), reload speed could be increased (nerf).

The answer you are looking for is "all the options above should be looked at, but none alone". SS currently do not fit well in NFNA because this server is not like the original from Korea (where they first implement new ships).

Also, the debate is not taking place here, but on the Test Server.

As I've said before, SS Class WILL CHANGE... it's a fact. What we must do now is give input on how we want them to change. They will not stay the same, and those who wish for that will inevitably get disappointed.

is it possible to get this moved to test server discussion area? I see some valid arguments that might be to benifit if included.

I appreciate your explanation.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if splash and duds are removed, subs will be a metric TONNE more nasty then they are right now. The dud rate means that inexperienced players fire at 1/2 their effective range, then rage when less than 1/2 their torps hit. More experienced sub players know to fire their torps at max range, leading their target so that torps that would normally dud instead go off at their range and do a little damage instead of none at all.

As far as the changes to support slot effectiveness, all we need there are caps so that 120 crews on subs do not give retarded performance, as is the case now.


Until the 120 crew cap goes in, PHH have to stay as stupidly high as it is, or else those 120 subs are hard to stop.

I don't think the periscope idea is feasible with the current game engine, but that's supposition on my part.

As for spotting, that completely destroys subs one tactic: stealth. If every ship can see a sub, regardless of the range they can do it at, then subs are no longer viable. They do not have the speed to catch anything that isn't already crippled, especially underwater.

I do like the scout plane idea, but it would need a limitation. The best idea I've seen is the sonar bouy that's dropped as a mine, and gives a one shot couple of seconds of limited underwater sight. If you know roughly where a sub is, and can get a scout close enough, then you can point out where he is. It would need to be only a couple of seconds in duration (I'm thinking 2 is more than enough), and the range would need to be limited to that of a DD without a sonarman since subs do not have the speed or air to take more indirect routes to their targets.

I'd rather just say that AA gunners can fire HH cannons, since it's a similar principle, but whatever.

Get a sub and try that dawg. It will fail miserably 75% of the time. Subs are not the fictory instakill ships that BBs make them out to be. An at level sub doesn't have the option to wait, because he's gonna need every second of the fight in order to get close to the enemy line. He waits, and he'll be left behind by the battle line with zero attack (and sometimes that happens anyway, if a flank gets rolled).

A sub fires off when it's in range, because if there's one ship nearby him with HH, that one shot is all he gets.

Once his air is out (and it will be about 30 secs after getting in sight of the enemy line), he's on the surface, and if there's a good gunner nearby, he's oneshot DEAD as soon as that happens.

Fara, how hard is it to setup FRAPS? If I can get it working, I'm gonna record my own sub runs in at level and higher level subs. Just to give some perspective to this one sided arguement.

Tyron, most of this ideas are already being discussed in the Test Server section and in fact, some of them have been proposed by the same people being called sub-haters in this thread.

I'm just bringing them here so that all people can get a big picture of what is being done and start proposing balance options instead of the "Nerf SS vs Leave them Be" argument that we are having here. As I said before... SS Class is not going to be nerfed, it's going to get balanced.

How do you figure they will be MORE nasty? Your experienced players won't get a huge advantage from the massive splash damage. So, instead of firing their torps at max range and knowing they really don't need to hit someone, they actually have to aim and hit the ship. I don't see how you get that would make them more nasty.



They are able to create a separate depth for crit dives. They can create a third depth for periscope.
I am not of the opinion that inherent sonar or the use of sonarman is the best solution, but BBs should have some ability to see subs somehow. There has got to be a way for them to be able to see and counter the subs.

Whether it is the scout sea level or your sonar buoy idea or subs making themselves visible for 2 seconds when they fire. Whatever. There needs to be some way for them to be visible momentarily.

I agree that it shouldn't be permanent and long-reaching.




I understand that playing an at-level sub is tough. Playing at-level BB123s and CAs in a GB2 is tough, too. Rushing straight at the enemy line isn't very successful in those ships either. And, playing at-level CV gets your planes eaten up in GB2s by pilots that are 40 levels higher than yours.

I readily admit that I have the easiest rushing sub out there. I have an IJN SS4 with 3 120 engineers and 1 120 rep. It's got 900SD and max OH and laughs at anything less than PHH in a tight spread. I understand that is completely different from someone playing in an at-level SS12 with no high level supports.

Perhaps SS12 needs to be improved slightly to make that grind easier. I don't think so because playing BB12 in GB is just as difficult. But, with that in mind, that doesn't mean SS34 don't need nerfs.

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To add...I would say it is easier to play SS234 with an at-level BO, planes, sonar, torp and high level supports than it is to play BB123 with at-level BO, gunners and high level supports.