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Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 07. 2011 16:03
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 08:11
MrSparkle
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If SS4 are nerfed and SS5 take their place, what's the point of adding SS5?
I think a lot of people here seem to missing the "team" aspect of this game. BBs can't detect SS because that's the job of others on their team. A lot of people seem to be upset that in a 1v1 situation a BB cannot defeat an SS, because the SS does so much damage and you don't even know it's there.
You have to look at it from a "team" perspective. Your team has your BBs, your CVs, your SS, your AA ships, and your anti-sub ships. If SS are constantly getting through and wreaking havoc, maybe your anti-sub ships just suck.
Are destroyers not a good choice vs SS in this game? I'm hearing there's something wrong with depthcharges. If that's so, that should be fixed ASAP. Destroyers are the anti-sub ships and should be considered a highly valuable part of the fleet, but if they can't do their job that's a serious problem.
As I typed this I thought of a problem: Destroyers are anti-sub ships, and are also low level so people will probably not use them once they level past them (and having to reduce crew to use them at high levels doesn't help). There's a good chance any destroyers present in a game with SS are low level players. Pair that with the problem with depthcharges I'm hearing about and we wind up with insufficient defense vs SS. Is that how it is ingame? I haven't played a GB or GB2 yet so I'm just guessing.
Maybe I think about this game too much in terms of other games? I know from the other WW2 sub or ship games I've played you always had to stay away from the destroyers when in a sub. Other subs were a threat, but destroyers were out to sink you, and were good at it. Those depthcharges would start rolling off the back and you had to get the hell out of there.
(I also think it's crazy that a SS won't sink from a point blank shot like that. That's too much damage reduction.)
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 08:35
nyerkovic
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Originally Posted by Challen76
Originally Posted by nyerkovic
About BB3 vs SS4, you just pointed out what I said. Why compare BB3 to SS4?... SS4 is a Tier 4 ship. As to the 1vs1... I'm not sure. They are 2 different type of ships and have different play-styles... SS should win while it's underwater, but once its out BB wins.
SS4 vs BB3 because they are the ~same level. If we are to compare ship vs. ship in a level based game, then this is needed to achieve balance.
Originally Posted by nyerkovic
I will say it again and as many times as is needed for everyone to understand. Balance is not a nerf... it is a combination of buffs and nerfs, and there are a lot of variables to play with in order to achieve balance... you have to give and take in order to balance something, specially when new content comes prepared for an uncapped server and it has to fit in NFNA where we have caps.
If people believe a ship is overpowered for its level, and they want to balance it in order to reduce its overall effectiveness, then by all rights and measures, it gets nerfed.
True, but you missed one vital point I made before in that same quote... why does SS Class has to keep their levels?... Required level is also a variable that can be analyzed and changed in order to achieve balance. It has been done before and it was also a variable changed in the SN/MN Balance Patch (ships and also guns changed their required level). When balancing, thinking out of the box is required. Why because one ship is lvl38 (SS1) or 77(SS4) it has to keep being that way? It's true that because of level, BB3 should be compared with SS4... but if by doing that we only nerf and make a class useless, isn't it more logical to just move them up one tier and compare it with the BB4 at lvl89 instead, and over there look for balance? Remember SS4 is a Tier 4 Ship... does it make sense to have it at lvl70 when all other Tier 4 ships (BBs/CVs) are near lvl90? Right now in your answer, you assumed level as something static and not a variable to be reviewed... that is a misconception that most people have. Many people in many threads take their stance assuming that levels can't move, then when presented with the idea of balance they immediately think "nerf". In a balance... everything that is possible to change, can be changed if necessary. Please don't assume that just because people say something is overpowered for their level, ships will be nerfed til they are non effective... it just means that they have to find their place either managing performance, or managing level or even a mix of every variable... and to do that, we need a mix of nerfs and buffs. Again, and sorry for being so insistent on this, balance is not nerf.... its a give and take thing. No one wants to reduce their effectiveness, they just want to find its rightful place.
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 08:54
Gtdawg
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Originally Posted by MrSparkle
I think a lot of people here seem to missing the "team" aspect of this game. BBs can't detect SS because that's the job of others on their team. A lot of people seem to be upset that in a 1v1 situation a BB cannot defeat an SS, because the SS does so much damage and you don't even know it's there.
If we're going to balance based on how a team plays together, then there is no reason to balance any ship at all because any ship can win easily if they have the right supporting ships. A Kaiser 1v1 against a QV might struggle because of armor penetration issues. However, a Kaiser and a Nebraska against a QV would be just fine. So, there is no reason to fix the Kaiser's armor penetration issue. A BB against a sub would struggle for any number of reasons in a GB, but a BB and an ASW DD teammate would be just fine, probably. Thus, we don't need to balance subs.
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 09:01
zanon
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Originally Posted by Tyron3
kk to revamp whats being show here, lets put aside the insane sub lovers like ij who doesnt seem to shut up and look at the video again.
!st point. the IJN ss4 completely trashed the kaiser which had 255 bulge and .4 belt. why is that possible? that a teir 4 sub can totaly destroy a bb6 with the press of 1 space bar?. Also with out phh (which most kaiser carry AA) the kaiser cannot even have a chance to defend itself.
2nd, the ijn ss4 900 SD survived a kaiser full salvo. KAISER, a bb6's full salvo. now with ss5 coming out id say ss5 should take ss4s place or lower and ss4 nerfed to ss3 standards and so on but please see whats wrong with the picture. the ss survives a bb6 salvo! and can 2 shot a full armored bulge wise and extra than normal belt bb6.
(P.S. i was playing the SS in the film)
this is as far as i go ; have u tried this with some bulk , 2nd i think these high call (splash) guns do less dmg on subs than ever gun with a smaller splash 3th the ijn cv5 is a ss eater ( space for sonar & engine and hh and 6 pilots) and this makes ij's point !! they need an over haul nerf the sub and hh,dc fix the exp ect ect and i played the ijn ss4 in HA tiles from time to time and i have had alot of bb6's and cv6's slip out of my hands imo they have some mean defense and speed and than i'm out of ammo . and if u look at the last BS HA tile movie ...u'll see im shitting my pants for 1 hour but i might be a sub newbie
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 09:29
MrSparkle
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Originally Posted by Gtdawg
Originally Posted by MrSparkle
I think a lot of people here seem to missing the "team" aspect of this game. BBs can't detect SS because that's the job of others on their team. A lot of people seem to be upset that in a 1v1 situation a BB cannot defeat an SS, because the SS does so much damage and you don't even know it's there.
If we're going to balance based on how a team plays together, then there is no reason to balance any ship at all because any ship can win easily if they have the right supporting ships. A Kaiser 1v1 against a QV might struggle because of armor penetration issues. However, a Kaiser and a Nebraska against a QV would be just fine. So, there is no reason to fix the Kaiser's armor penetration issue. A BB against a sub would struggle for any number of reasons in a GB, but a BB and an ASW DD teammate would be just fine, probably. Thus, we don't need to balance subs.
That's a false argument. BB vs BB needs to be balanced, but when it comes to BB vs SS it's not the same balance requirement. I keep hearing that SS4 needs to be nerfed because it's a lower level than BB4 (as if the "4" means they should require equal levels.) BBs simply do not have the capability to deal with SS on their own. I like the idea that one ship cannot do it all. I like the idea that BBs need to rely on DD to screen them from SS, and CVs (or AA) to defend them vs bombers. It's a subtle dynamic at play, putting all of that together. Just because a bunch of SS torps did insane damage to a BB does not mean something's wrong with balance between them (and in my opinion, the BB should have sunk outright. That was what, 7 torps that hit in the same spot?) I DO AGREE THAT A POINT BLANK BB SALVO SHOULD SINK AN SS (seriously, wtf? How can it survive that?), but I don't agree with these calls for other nerfs. Yes, torps do insane damage, yes BBs can't see SS, and yes SS4 does appear to be equal to SS4 because of the "4" designation, but those aren't compelling arguments. Rather than balance BB vs SS, destroyers need to be fixed. If what I heard is true and depthcharges are launched from the sides causing splash damage to the destroyer, THAT NEEDS FIXING. IMO, NF maps should be larger, giving CVs the range advantage they should have. Teams start too close to each other, and I'm not talking Hobbit Wars. That has nothing to do with BB vs SS, but it does have to do with the fact that BBs should not be the kings of the seas. CVs should be. FYI, I play a spaceship PvP game as a faction that can cloak and hit very hard, much like a submarine, and it's the same kind of arguments there too. People just don't like the combination of cloak/stealth + high damage.
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 09:42
nyerkovic
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Originally Posted by MrSparkle
I keep hearing that SS4 needs to be nerfed because it's a lower level than BB4 (as if the "4" means they should require equal levels.)
Just a point about this. The 4 means the Tier... and in every aspect of this game, that indeed means equal levels (or roughly the same depending on nation, but still the point stands) If you check the Ship Tree, Sailor Tree and Components on the Game Info, you will see that every Tier is around the same levels. This is valid for Sailors, Aircraft (Scout, Fighters, Dive Bombers and Torp Bombers), BBs and CVs. Sometimes you can find more than one ship in a Tier (as is the case of IJN and CVs), but still the principle stands... same Tier ships are found around the same level. The "4" is the Tier, and as you can see level is a factor in the equation and it is respected in everything except SS... so I do believe is a valid argument and something that needs to be considered when discussing balance.
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 10:28
SK_Bismarck
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Originally Posted by nyerkovic
Originally Posted by MrSparkle
I keep hearing that SS4 needs to be nerfed because it's a lower level than BB4 (as if the "4" means they should require equal levels.)
Just a point about this. The 4 means the Tier... and in every aspect of this game, that indeed means equal levels (or roughly the same depending on nation, but still the point stands) If you check the Ship Tree, Sailor Tree and Components on the Game Info, you will see that every Tier is around the same levels. This is valid for Sailors, Aircraft (Scout, Fighters, Dive Bombers and Torp Bombers), BBs and CVs. Sometimes you can find more than one ship in a Tier (as is the case of IJN and CVs), but still the principle stands... same Tier ships are found around the same level. The "4" is the Tier, and as you can see level is a factor in the equation and it is respected in everything except SS... so I do believe is a valid argument and something that needs to be considered when discussing balance.
Disagree...ship level for tier in one ship class is different...there is much more ship classes and you can not say generaly that for example tier 4 should be around 85-90 lvl.... each ship class has their own levels for each tier... we have tier s: FF 1 - 3 DD 1 - 4 CL 1 - 3 CA 1 - 3 BB 1 - 6 CV 1 - 6 SS 1 - 4 (5) Each ship class have different advantages and disadvantages agains each other... If DD are SS killer than low level/tiers DD should have advantage over higher tiers SS....same if BB is CV killer than with lower tier BB you can easy destroy higer level CVs...same for SS like BB killers...low level/tier SS should be able destroy higher level/tier BBs... this is principle Rock/Paper/Scissors... Level based principle is only in same ship class...higher level ship should be better than lover level...BUT IN SAME CLASS (e.g. BB vs BB)... Due to advantages/disadvantages each ship class vs each other should have lover level ship class have advantage over higher level ship from another ship class but with RPS principle has disadvantage agains other ship class with lower level... good example... lower lvl DD > higher lvl SS lower lvl SS > higher lvl BB lower lvl BB > higher lvl CV etc...
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 11:03
superjugy
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Originally Posted by SK_Bismarck
Originally Posted by nyerkovic
Originally Posted by MrSparkle
I keep hearing that SS4 needs to be nerfed because it's a lower level than BB4 (as if the "4" means they should require equal levels.)
Just a point about this. The 4 means the Tier... and in every aspect of this game, that indeed means equal levels (or roughly the same depending on nation, but still the point stands) If you check the Ship Tree, Sailor Tree and Components on the Game Info, you will see that every Tier is around the same levels. This is valid for Sailors, Aircraft (Scout, Fighters, Dive Bombers and Torp Bombers), BBs and CVs. Sometimes you can find more than one ship in a Tier (as is the case of IJN and CVs), but still the principle stands... same Tier ships are found around the same level. The "4" is the Tier, and as you can see level is a factor in the equation and it is respected in everything except SS... so I do believe is a valid argument and something that needs to be considered when discussing balance.
Disagree...ship level for tier in one ship class is different...there is much more ship classes and you can not say generaly that for example tier 4 should be around 85-90 lvl.... each ship class has their own levels for each tier... we have tier s: FF 1 - 3 DD 1 - 4 CL 1 - 3 CA 1 - 3 BB 1 - 6 CV 1 - 6 SS 1 - 4 (5) Each ship class have different advantages and disadvantages agains each other... If DD are SS killer than low level/tiers DD should have advantage over higher tiers SS....same if BB is CV killer than with lower tier BB you can easy destroy higer level CVs...same for SS like BB killers...low level/tier SS should be able destroy higher level/tier BBs... this is principle Rock/Paper/Scissors... Level based principle is only in same ship class...higher level ship should be better than lover level...BUT IN SAME CLASS (e.g. BB vs BB)... Due to advantages/disadvantages each ship class vs each other should have lover level ship class have advantage over higher level ship from another ship class but with RPS principle has disadvantage agains other ship class with lower level... good example... lower lvl DD > higher lvl SS lower lvl SS > higher lvl BB lower lvl BB > higher lvl CV etc...
I like the RPS idea, but really a low level ship should not be able to sink a higher level ship. in WoW, if you have a rogue vs a mage, the rogue wins, mage vs warrior, mage wins and warrior vs rogue, warrior wins. but at same level. if you put a level 80 mage vs a level 40 rogue, the rougue stands no chance vs the mage. taking the RPS idea that far is not logical. considering all capital ships are around same level, SS should be same level to be able to compare SS4 vs BB4. the only problem i see with this is that there are no high level DDs. there should be high level DDs and CLs that give AA ans ASW support. since obviously a level 120 DD sinking a BB1 is stupid. but a lvl 120 DD should be able to AA godly and sinking lvl 120 subs with ease. but i dont think that is going to happen anytime soon.
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 11:18
SK_Bismarck
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Originally Posted by superjugy
I like the RPS idea, but really a low level ship should not be able to sink a higher level ship. in WoW, if you have a rogue vs a mage, the rogue wins, mage vs warrior, mage wins and warrior vs rogue, warrior wins. but at same level. if you put a level 80 mage vs a level 40 rogue, the rougue stands no chance vs the mage. taking the RPS idea that far is not logical.
considering all capital ships are around same level, SS should be same level to be able to compare SS4 vs BB4. the only problem i see with this is that there are no high level DDs. there should be high level DDs and CLs that give AA ans ASW support. since obviously a level 120 DD sinking a BB1 is stupid. but a lvl 120 DD should be able to AA godly and sinking lvl 120 subs with ease. but i dont think that is going to happen anytime soon.
We dont need high levels AA/ASW...we just need people motivate play on this ships and play their role in battle... 1. posibility to use high level crew on DDs (maybe way same like on SS...weigh coeficient for sailors to reduce their weight on DDs/CLs) 2. huge boost credids points experience reward for killing SS/AA without penalization ship level vs sailor level...
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Re : Ijn SS4 Test......
08. 10. 2011 11:24
Esoom
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Too many sub threads...
I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again. Heavy RPS style balance is terrible and makes the game have little depth or skill basis on the individual level. There should be a small RPS element to add strategy to the battle, but it should not heavily override skill of the individual and make the outcome of individual combat predictable. The RPS element most of you are arguing for is way too heavy. RPS is a boring game with no depth, but well balanced; if that is what you want than go play it. How much fun is it to be the rock in RPS?
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