really short indeed ^^ (sry but it would be impossible to read otherwise)
By far the most logic post on this topic.
I have to say i am ok with almost all you said, the only one was we are not ok with long version ^^
Btw i know that woul require a lot of programmation, but i find quite stupid to use air, they should have given battery time instead, so a fast rusher would have to surface and recharge, while a more tactics use of energy would allow deep silent penetration to finish with a killing rush (I think thats what you can call tactics with a sub^^). But i know thats a mere dream (and planesman would be batteryman, which is quite fail as sailor name ^^)

You proposed a new ASW ship line (well i have made that proposition some days ago look for topic called "new eventual ships"). Actually the problem is that ASW is almost only for low level ships (unless you play as semi ASW F/A CV). The fact is: when you can use the ASW ships making decent exp/lvl ratio or you are at your first ship (or second) and dont know that OP makes you unable to spot SS, or you gunner are at low level and have no PHH so you need 1 min to reload (and get sick of that real fast because as if it wasnt enough) your spread sucks, so you will not be happy being a ASW ship and dont level up easily.

If instead you are a long time player who wants to play as support you will soon discover than: adeguate to lvl of ship sailors are (well the same of the new guy) so you load decent gunners to cut reload, but lvl 60-100 sailors weight a lot more than lvl 15-40 sou you loos speed, and then you woul be tempted to load some good engies, and in the blink of an eyes you find yourself making perhaps 25% of 1/4 of the EXP you would do as a BB or CV, and soon stop to play as support.

In my opinion what could be done:

A) No real Debuff on SS but a rearrangement of their strong and weak points, keep em fun to play (more fun more people) well what you said is really ok for me.

B) Introduction of a playable at high levels ASW/AA specialized ship to allow experienced palyers to make good support without having to lose high ammounts of EXP everytime their crew reach the exp loss point. This way we would not have high skilled player going berserk because ofbad ASW skills.

and, well not directly linked but:

C) BB and CV tier players could use other slots on GB and make room start faster (incresing time playing/total time ratio would make everybody gain EXP ^^)

PS: D) Wooooot i just made an emerald ASW, if you dont use PHH you spend 75K credits a game i ammo... suggestion if HH are nerfed, nerf the price too, to allow even low level to buy new ships when playing ASW

As it is 6 am things could get a little fuzzy ^_^ I will probobly end up with me saying something stupid, but here we go.

I have put out most of my main points in my last post. I have a few general ideas on the actual speed and such of the ships, dmg ect ect... most of this should be taken with a grain of salt as it would be important to tested in the "test server" befor implimenting all of the changes. As it is easy to suggest numbers on paper but harder to see how it actualy work is usualy a completly different thing.

My goal is is to do what is best for most players instead of just a few. so lets begin.

I would be thinking an increas in air time around 75% -125%. Max speed of SS5 would be dropped to around 37 knots surface speed with a underwater speed around 33-35. In a previous post i was talking about SS speed being more equal between SS 1-5 so lets say SS1 going around 33-35 surface and 30-33 dive... (again this would have to be tested to make sure the air is sufficent to allow the SS time to make its attacks)

With increas air time 75% - 125 %the lower speed would not be an issue. Only time it could be a pain is if one team gets totaly destroyed as it could be hard for the SS to make it to the battle line. Be it this is a problem for alot of ships when 2-3 BB's destroy a team.

Torp dmg could be scaled back by about 20-35%, but give the SS's 3-6 more binds of ammo. With a reduction of Splash area dmg to something similar to Torp bombers this would solve the problem of ships dodging the torps but still taking close to full dmg. With a slight deacreas in reload time (not sure of this figure) the SS would be more of a hit and run ship. This would allow the player to not only have to work a little harder to get kills since you can't just spray your torps. The extra ammo will not only allow subs to have the ability to get more dmg but also allow for a more playtime befor running out of ammo.

Add this with a significantly lower torp dud rate to lets say 1dud per 15-20 torps. The SS will be rewarded for solid shooting and well timed strikes. The fact that you know most if not all of your torps will hit would be a big a major confidence factor for the SS player as they know they will hit what they are shooting at. With the 20-35% dmg reduction but greatly lowerd dud rate the dmg output would still be similar to what it is now. With the extra ammo there is the possibility for even higher attacks for players who are sucsessful and skilled.

HH dmg would have to be lowerd it is way to strong at this point. I would say dmg should be 1/2 of current and again splash dmg should be limited. As the lower lvl gunners tend to spray the HH around I could see how a little bit of splash dmg area could still be ok. This would lower the death of SS players mid map as alot of the lower players HH spread would be pretty bad at angle 35+. Most of the time you don't see BB's with the high lvl gunners shooting HH at subs mid map so I don't see this as a huge problem. The price of HH is pretty expensive for the lower players.

I would love to see a line of ships that mirror the DD-CA's that are currently in the game but allow for the the larger crews. With better exp as the ship lvl will be closer to lvl 85-100 it would alow higher lvl players to not only Antisub but AA ect ect. I would love to get back into some of the blitz ships but take them to GB and actualy be able to contribute to the team. Without sacrificing tons of exp to play the ships.

I would say a 1/4 dmg loss to the depth charges but keep the splash dmg as it is pretty rare to see depth charge players. Lets be honest it is much harder to Depth charge then HH so lets give them a little bonus for managing to get the ship in close. The general goal would be the SS should feel relitivly save underwater.

A possibility would be to lower the ammount of dmg taken in critical dive to lets say 1/2 of what it current is, but a small increase in loss of air while in critical dive. Then it is less of an issue of the sub getting killed because its health gets sapped when HH players gradual shoot at them. The SS player would lose less health but a loss in air would componsate for the lower dmg loss. This would again make SS players be a little more tactical in their attacks.

I would be guessing that the SS5 will take care of some of the problems with high lvl crew and the space on a sub. I know alot of players find it hard to fit their fat crew on the SS. Would have to see how the SS5 will adress this problem befor i offer a suggestion on this.

Finaly a big change for the SS players and something the BB's will very happy about is the dmg taken when on the surface. At long range the SS is pretty small target to hit with alot of shells so the SS player already has that advantage. Most time at max range a SS will only take about 1-2 shells hits.

I think SS should be taking alot of dmg from shells on the surface. This of course if offset by the large increas of air time that the sub's will be getting. There would be no reason why the SS should be getting shot middle map with 2x air. They could get be underwater well befor the BB's will be able to fire on them. If SS player decideds to risk it and venture into the middle on surface for more air time they will be risking getting large dmg from the BB's. This would allow for more of a gamble for the SS players that want to tempt fait for that 30 seconds extra air time.

This change of suface dmg would also show change how the SS would play. It would push for a more strike and run style of play. It would also take care of some problems with a KM SS4 with a special kinda gun that can do some pretty crazy dmg. If SS knows its going to actualy get hurt with BB fire it will allow for the gun to be used for more tactical plays. an example of this would be waiting for a BB/CV ect to be in the red and then poping up to finish it off befor the player can gets its gun on you. This would also allow the SS player to use the guns for its original intended purpose of AA if they player so decided. Probobly a good idea to AA behind the BB line tho.

I am well aware that thse numbers or % listed should not be taken as a be all end all. As I do feel it would have to be tested to see if this would actualy work. That being saidI belive that this option could help solve the problem of the SS class. It would not take away all the power of the SS it would just shift it to a slightly different role. With the deductions anti sub weapons the SS player especialy the lower SS players should be able to participate more in the battle.

Alot of the problems with the SS come from the fact that alot of players are well over the lvl of the ship. At lvl players are presented with alot more challanges. The goal would be to shorten the gap between uber crew and the crews that are at lvl. There is no question that a lvl110+ crew should preform better but there shoudn't be as much of a gap as what we are seeing now.

So there is a little bit more in depth plan

btw RedNemo i noticed your post just after i posted mine ^_^ I would be happy with the batteryman lol but I figured i would keep my suggestions with stuff already implimented in the game. At least this way there is a change it could actualy be worked on. : P I really like the idea that the SS player could choise between going fast or slow and it would effect air/battery time this would be a sweet addition but as I said, I will try to keep it a little more s

The way i figure is most people won't bother reading it. But... perhaps a few of the testers will. It seems like some people such as lj and a few others would take the time and frankly i am ok with some general players not reading it. Because most of the people that woud not read the post are not going to bother showing up to the test servers. So perhaps it is a wast of my time like so many other posts that i have made but i guess nothing will change if you don't keep trying.

i would love to test that, but atm i cant, maybe after the 14th. We can try to post those suggestion directly to the testers.
If as you said most of players wont read this. Its maybe better to present a effective and maybe already beta tested solutions more than just complaining and arguing. My proposal to you: ask the tester what they think, maybe ask if they want some help, try, retry and then start again. create something and then invite people to test by theirselves.
Imo is the best way, but tester woul become insane in instant if too many proposals come to them.

I agree with your on the speed reduction, air buff, however not on the magnitude of the speed reduction.

Currently, SS with high level high vetted crew reach easily underwater speeds of 33-34 (my KM SS3 goes 34 knot submerged) and it simply gives no chances to AW and SN ships to get away. BBs need to be able to outrun subs, subs needs to be able to approach undetected. That means no more than 35 surfaced, 30 submerged in my opinion.

An adjustment on both is needed. That means, we ain't suggesting a speed nerf. We are suggesting sacrifying speed to gain air and stealth options.

On torps, I actually think the other way from you. Keep damage, nerf reload. Some subs might need a damage adjustement, but the overall is fine. The only sub whose salvo should be reduced is IJN SS4 imo.

Something that could compromise is offering 2 tubes option for each subs. 1 fast reloading(about current), with considerably lesser torp damage (so DPM stays the same) with more torps, and one much longer, but with current torp damage. But I personnaly believe SS should be hard hitting on that surprise attack. I also believe it will make aiming more challenging. See this as a possiblity I'd be ready to give a serious look over, but am not convinced (simply there to show I do consider a lots of options)

Splash - Remove as much as possible. If its induced by torp damage, I believe we won,t be able to totally remove it, but we can at least reduce it to on deck torp levels. Prox torp should keep full damage if they prox detonate, separate from the splash damage.

Dud - Remove. A hit is a hit and a miss is a miss. Compensation for removing splash as well.

On torps : offer various torps options, in IJN TW fashion. Have national traits taking into account in the different torps offered.



HH solution : Remove PHH, give one decently priced regular HH (in game price. No prem) and balance it correctly. Make it harder to use by limiting the firing angle to 50+ up to 90 (HAW firing). In counterpart, detonate on hitting surface, if a sub didnt see them coming after the air time, it deserves to die. Reduce radius, forcing a ship to aim well and have a good idea about where the sub is to hit it.

DC: Offers two timers on it : 2 sec and 4 sec (fast/slow, respectively) on fast, sub doesnt have time to crit dive, slow keeps it under for a few extra seconds, giving the ASW ship time to clear the line of fire of the sub that will try to retaliate. DC uses makes the ship approach obvious, the sonar goes off as soon as the approaching ship hits the OH. Sub more than have the time to fool the ship there, unless its being double teamed (1 ship keeps sonar contact, 1 ship attacks). If a ship successfully maneuvers on top of a sub, and launch DC on fast, the sub that isnt already crit diving needs to sink for the stupidity.

-remove surface damage (goes along with splash)
-Reduce radius once more, no more than a sub lenght I'd say

On dedicated ASW line - I don't believe a line with no end-of-the-line capital ship would be very popular. I'd rather see higher level ECL (omaha/Emden/Emerald style) that are available to all BOs so long as they got the level, and around lvl 65-70. Give them good space to use AA on the Tslots, 4-5 HH launcher on the R slots, and decent leveling spots (6 would be my suggestion).




Suggested to remove damage in crit dive, and allow maneuvering. My own suggestion is a silent running mode, where all systems are deactivated (little sight range, no sonar, no torp reload, speed heavily reduced) where you don't appear on sonar, but you are still vulnerable, and a crit dive that sucks up air like mad, but do not damage. Crit dives also interupt torp reload. It stays a dodging method. However, my idea is a bit more complex to implement, so realistically I'm setting for changing crit dive into a movable mode with the overall idea described.


[QUOTE=acanafrog]

I would be guessing t

As I said many times, SS balancing will be the hardest challenge I've seen in NF.

I'm afraid 3 lines thrown out there won't cut it, no matter how much some people fail to understand it, and just keep denouncing a "nerf bat" rather than add to the debate.

If you don't feel like reading tons of text with tons of ideas, thats ok. Avoid discussing the ideas tough, since you didnt take the time to understand where it came from and the reason behind it.

I've seen ideas I didnt like, but found the motivation behind it interesting, and I then take it into account in my owns.

? i never said i wasnt interessed in reading long posts. Its just that i have not the technicall knowledge to go further than just give an idea, i have no idea in what manner the game can be rewritten.
The only thing i can do is propose an idea (with less technical possible) look at how people react, then resume what came out of discussion an repropose a variation of what first presented.
I am not a real skilled player (never been higher than a BB4) but i can observe the sub warfare and what i see its or you modify radically the subs (with great rage of sub drivers) or implement a new ship lines who is only effective against SS but not much against other ships). I wont tell things like nerf 20% off that or add 234 SD to this, because i have no real idea of what would happen. I have an old account in absolute timing (i had long pauses) tho and what i have noticed is that every new ships is usually well accepted (from almost everyone)
And my assertion: I wont post another river of words, was partially autoironic (I tried to post a well constructed (and constructive i hope) comment. I didnt analysed each point cause the details have to be checked in test but all the ideas seem valid to me, at least in principle.
Btw i would just notify that actually I am on your side i am for argumentative discussion more than intimidative/aggressive. And my offer to help in testing was and still is genuine.