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Let the Test Team Balance Subs
09. 01. 2011 16:41
 Recommend : 24
ljsevern
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As above. Do not release SS5's until SS Balance by the Test Team
Otherwise, players will flat out refuse to play and the game will die within months.
SS4's are already competitive in HA game modes (which have nearly all 120 ships apart from Submarines).
Any further buff is just going to further alienate all non submarine ships;
The SS's, while being counters to BB's, shouldn't still be an auto win.
They should have their levels adjusted for their tier.
They should have their power adjusted for their tier.
They should have their playstyle changed from Glass Orbital Cannons to a skill based hit and run ship, designed to harass the enemy from behind their lines.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 07. 2011 11:50
SK_Bismarck
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Originally Posted by nyerkovic
From what I understand, the main point about GB as balance indicator is the skill level of the general room.
Ships need to be balanced to perform well and show their attributes when played by a skilled player. It should encourage people to learn and play better every day. Some ships are more forgiving than others, but the general idea is that ships should require skill to excel.
It's like Auto FCS and Manual FCS. You don't balance thinking people use Auto FCS more often, you balance thinking people should eventually learn Manual FCS to excel and perform.
Take the H44 or SY for example. They were balanced to make people strive to be better. In the hands of a skilled player, they can outperform any ship, but in the hands of a player that has still a lot to learn, they are easy targets.
That is the whole point from what I read in other threads and in the test server. GB is the most played game mode, but you don't find ships being played at their maximum performance there, you find them in FL/FW. It's not so much about the game mode, but more about the type of player you find in it.
Sure I totaly agree with you, I just said that we can not forget to most played game modes and we have to calculate with them in balance discusions. For example...in game modes with less teamplay have some classes little bit more chance to success....for example SS, bombers have more easier life in GBs than in FW/HA where they stand agains prepared and skilled team. Agree with that we have to check content if there is not OP with skilled players, but we have to not forget to check if in mixed enviroment (most played) it is OK or not too. Just count with both...skilled enviroment (HA/FL/FW) with mixed enviroment (GB/Blitz).
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 07. 2011 12:29
nyerkovic
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Originally Posted by SK_Bismarck
Sure I totaly agree with you, I just said that we can not forget to most played game modes and we have to calculate with them in balance discusions.
For example...in game modes with less teamplay have some classes little bit more chance to success....for example SS, bombers have more easier life in GBs than in FW/HA where they stand agains prepared and skilled team.
Agree with that we have to check content if there is not OP with skilled players, but we have to not forget to check if in mixed enviroment (most played) it is OK or not too. Just count with both...skilled enviroment (HA/FL/FW) with mixed enviroment (GB/Blitz).
I do believe that is how the Test Team is conducting the tests, or have planned to do so. It starts with the skilled environment and then there is the massive mixed environment test. The hard part is getting people to participate in that mass test. The amount of people that show up to the tests when recreating the GB environment is not always the amount needed. This will probably sound like a recruitment announcement, but the test team does need the help from people that are interested in this balance topics. People need to participate in the tests, so all those that can do it or find the time to do so, please participate and help to achieve successful tests. Those participating don't necessarily need technical knowledge of the game, or know about the game mechanics and formulas, just being there and help achieve the base number of people for a test is just as important. I will try and make time to help.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 07. 2011 13:48
ozzy0
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wel i wood help if i cud but real life gets in the way
+ its is a us server and i'm in europe
so if the little of time i have will be mostly on the time the us is at work
and that counts for alot of europe's players
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 07. 2011 16:55
ljsevern
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Originally Posted by leaderwolf
That can be a balance.Hidden nerf in balance isn't a good suggestion,again we see
Do not release SS5's until SS Balance by the Test Team?team what team onf,tnf,sde?Kr is know better what is good.
Glass Orbital Cannons again maybe is add new radar?or high lvls of sonar?
Isn't to many high lvls subs,why is need to hit the smalls unskiled with not decent SD?Can't be fair.
SS5 is a normal evolution of SS4 but more is a involution
UK m2 fat big easy target, IJN AM Db ask :where is panama gate? SN Dclass is SS4 Argonaute.
KM type IX is just Type VII with more space and one torp(back)
Only good SS5 is Gato-class.
Slot is be welcome but two?for training low crew .
The irony of topic is : some add and want new stuff for subs.and is vote for that.
Other type non suggest of author topic.
In battle almost all time just high lvl of subs is survive and last no one can garrantead high lvl can escape against skilled players or under bombard of many asw HH.
All we must adapt and learn not every time attack other ships blamed CV,blamed BB or blamed SS.
I never see that almost all time;all do first self contribution in battle not in forum.Thx
First of all altsein, you can avoid HH, the videos have proben that. I have contributed many times in battle; I've won far many more fleet wars and leagues than you ever will. So do not bring skill into this. Second of all, you haven't even read my suggestions properly, let alone understood them. So before you actually start posting stuff I haven't said, read them. Third of all, SS5 are going to be better than SS4. SS4 are already overpowered for the reasons I have said in ths topic countless times. You balance for skilled players with high level crews; Otherwise, you end up having overpowered ships like we do now.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 07. 2011 17:01
ljsevern
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Originally Posted by SK_Bismarck
Originally Posted by ljsevern
You can't use GB as a balance indicator, as fleet compositions are vastly different, teamwork is little to none, and skill level is generally little to none. People play for Exp, not to win. Furthermore, attack isn't the only indicator of power.
You have to use GB as a balance indicator because GB/blitz is most used game modes. You can not balance game only just for HA/FL/FW because this modes play only minority of player base. I like much more HA/FL/FW but we need prepare balanced content for most used game modes. In FL/FW you can easily balance because you can setup limits separately for this matches / FL/FW /. GB/blitz are modes which bring SDE money and player base is pushed to play in this modes. You can not ignore GB/Blitz from balance discusions just because you(me too) prefer playing in other modes. You have to count with this majority of players in this game modes.
Actually, you balance for skilled players and high level crews. Why? Because if you do not, and you then have a high skill player with a high level crew on, people complain about overpowered ships. I have never said that the GB limits are wrong for game balance, what I have said that you can't use GB as an indicator, because:- A) People play to maximise their exp, not to win. And that brings about a different playstyle. B) Fleet compositions are different; You can have an all bomber whore team, or a BB team filled with no scouts. You can have teams with no AA or no ASW. C) GB/Blitz are levelling tools. Nothing more. The majority of players play these game modes to get higher level crews for competitive events; HA/Fleet Wars/Fleet Leagues/Event rooms. This is what actually makes SDE money. Thus, when you are balancing ships, you need to take all of these into account. Unless you can prove that all the players in the GB you are referencing were skilled, and quote every ship and every setup on each team, and prove that people weren't playing Exp games to increase exp (such as letting a team-mate die so you can kill more, or letting a ship repair so you can kill him again), then you can't use it as a consistant example. I can take a CA into a GB and kill ships of a far higher level. Yet if I took it into a competitive game mode with equally skilled players, that would not happen. This alone PROVES that you can't compare the two.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 07. 2011 17:02
ljsevern
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Originally Posted by woodskier
subs face PHH, DC, shells...torps .....other subs.... ..CL with sonar ...DD's FF....CV,s with sonar....there more than enough ASW to wipe out the subs. Subs are allways, allways out numbered by the BB's, How would like that to be reversed for a while?
Subs air has been nerfed, speed has been nerfed dive time nerfed...meanwhile ASW weapons all Buffed.
Look at the PHH....thier only Hedge Hogs in name only...their range is that of shell fire, not HH.
PHH should be removed, we have all said that, please read posts. Second of all, Submarines have been proven to have enough time to avoid HH with crit dive.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 08. 2011 00:28
Humberto20
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Originally Posted by ljsevern
Originally Posted by woodskier
subs face PHH, DC, shells...torps .....other subs.... ..CL with sonar ...DD's FF....CV,s with sonar....there more than enough ASW to wipe out the subs. Subs are allways, allways out numbered by the BB's, How would like that to be reversed for a while?
Subs air has been nerfed, speed has been nerfed dive time nerfed...meanwhile ASW weapons all Buffed.
Look at the PHH....thier only Hedge Hogs in name only...their range is that of shell fire, not HH.
PHH should be removed, we have all said that, please read posts. Second of all, Submarines have been proven to have enough time to avoid HH with crit dive.
The Air is not a problem, they air is fine. But, something that will be make Air useless on critical dive is, if you are running out of Soft defence. The critical dive damage is high yes, but if running out of soft defence, its same as dangerous as having a full salvo of PHH above you on normal dive.
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 08. 2011 01:57
acanafrog
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I was going to write a really long post but i think i will go for a shorter post instead. I have tried to be fair and i am posting this as a player that likes to play every class of ship in the game. I see many problems currently in the SS line and belive that not only the SS5but all of the subs need to be ballanced.
SS torp dmg - ( SS dmg is crazy high lets find a middle ground for the dmg)
amount of SS torps + (well if we take away dmg why not give them some more torps)
SS reload speed slightly - ( this would allow for more tactical strikes rather then just spaming torps every 15 seconds)
SS splash dmg range - ( no other ship lets you miss and still do 5-15k dmg)
SS air time + ( I would rather see signifigant increase of Air time allowing tactical play from the SS rather then just 1 shot salvo kills)
SS speed - ( SS4's going 40 can outrun alot of BB's and CV's if SS5 is faster they will outrun most if not all BB's)
HH attack dmg - ( HH dmg was just implemented as a quick fix and it never solved the SS problem)
HH splash dmg range - ( again why are you dealing so much dmg when you are missing a ship by 1/4 of an inch)
SS dud rate - ( I do not see why 1/4-1/3 of torps need to dud if the dmg is lowerd if they hit they hit)
The amount of dmg an SS can take on surface - ( when a BB puts a 18 inch hole in a tube that can then go back under water, something is wrong.) {Honestly tho if a BB6 can't 1 shot a SS on surface something is wrong)
It would be nice to see ships that could take the role of sub hunting. As it stands most of the high lvl players are not willing to go back and get in a lvl 30 ship to kill subs. Now if we had a group of high lvl DD-CA this could happen. Lets say the ships could support the weight of lvl 100 + crews "perhaps" we would see more ant sub. To be honest not just limited to sub would love to fit my 100+ crew on an emden.
My general overall goal would be: more air time for subs giving more tactical play for them allowing them to hit and run. Without more air time my ballancing idea's will not work. Loss of speed for the SS woudn't be that big of a problem since they will have alot more air and have little need to be on surface. If the SS sinks like a stone if hit on surface, again wouldn't be a problem as long as air time increased. ( shoudn't be a problem if Air time is increased as you woudn't need to be on the sruface). HH dmg is lowerd including splash dmg so SS is fairly safe underwater. This will allow them to get to the BB's even with lack of speed. With SS dmg toned down a bit including the splash dmg, would call for more tactical strikes from the SS rather then just spam and sink. I would like to see the speed gap be lowerd between SS1-SS5 perhaps only a 3-5 knot difference between the spreed. I notice that SS1-SS2 have a hard time getting food as SS4's can already have sunk 2 BB's by the time they get to enemy line. When they do get to the line they are generaly out of air and have to surface after 1 shot. I would like to see a better system the SS1 suck SS2 suck SS3 good/great SS4 OP SS5 ??? probobly OP+++
I know alot of people will get angry with my post as there is alot more - then + on the list but lets look at this very simply. I do not know of any other ship that you can get at lvl 37-50 that can consistently kill BB5-6's.
Thanks for your time and yes this was the short version....
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 08. 2011 03:11
ljsevern
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Originally Posted by Humberto20
Originally Posted by ljsevern
Originally Posted by woodskier
subs face PHH, DC, shells...torps .....other subs.... ..CL with sonar ...DD's FF....CV,s with sonar....there more than enough ASW to wipe out the subs. Subs are allways, allways out numbered by the BB's, How would like that to be reversed for a while?
Subs air has been nerfed, speed has been nerfed dive time nerfed...meanwhile ASW weapons all Buffed.
Look at the PHH....thier only Hedge Hogs in name only...their range is that of shell fire, not HH.
PHH should be removed, we have all said that, please read posts. Second of all, Submarines have been proven to have enough time to avoid HH with crit dive.
The Air is not a problem, they air is fine. But, something that will be make Air useless on critical dive is, if you are running out of Soft defence. The critical dive damage is high yes, but if running out of soft defence, its same as dangerous as having a full salvo of PHH above you on normal dive.
One could argue that you shouldn't let yourself be in that situation. However, that is the reason I thought of the idea of slow movement and no damage crit dive (But takes up more air).
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Re : General Discussion for SS Balance suggestions.
09. 08. 2011 04:23
nyerkovic
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Originally Posted by acanafrog
I know alot of people will get angry with my post as there is alot more - then + on the list but lets look at this very simply. I do not know of any other ship that you can get at lvl 37-50 that can consistently kill BB5-6's.
Thanks for your time and yes this was the short version....
Some of your " - " are in reality " + " for people, so I don't see why others could get angry. It's one of many ways to find a balance. If you leave the emotional part away, just like you did right now, you should post the long version. It would help the debate.
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