Guys i dont see the problem to admit that somehow something must be done, it can be debuff a little the subs, for example crash drive doesnt damge the boat, but you cant move or shoot torpedo, but large guns make you some damges when you are at cruise deep.
In fact no major change have to be done in my opinion, we have quite enough pieces to do it..
I agrre with my successors avatar user, GB are not a quite effective ground for judging lvl of ships (once we did a GB2 where we didnt lose a SINGLE ship), but indeed they are the most played, for good exp rata and quite assurance t not be a random thinked game.

sad to see a discussion go down like this, but least i was able to read the valid points brought up so im happy for that, subs really do need an overall balance check to them as well as PHH getting smacked with the nerf bat. I'm seeing the same people over and over not really trying to discuss the issue when the ss5's are quite an issue, for all i know the ijn sub will have the ability to carry as many planes as an oyo when it should maybe carry 4 aircraft max if that.

We don't even know what the M type with it's 12" deck gun will do to bb's, some subs got smaller others got fatter but in the end the subs need some thing to balance them out, especially when after going over the torpedo damage they will deal more damage per torpedo and most likely stay under much longer.

I have fought and played vers subs, i have seen skilled and total slouch sub drivers, and i fear that it's not the driver that changes the outcome it is simply the ship they are using from ss4 on, such as an example the proxy torps ability of the german subs should be revoked and the massive torp splash range should be adjusted. There are some great ships that are amazing ASW ships but no one plays them or subs give too little exp when ya sink them to really do ASW. I have also played another game that had subs much like this and they were quite balanced, hell a wildcat strafing a sub whether it be a type VIIC or a Gato class would kill it off, not in one strafing run *unless from a considerable distance away to allow maximum strafing ability*. They also did great killing most other ships but a good player in a destroyer would eventually get them with depth charge sweeps or they ran out of torpedos.

Simply put the subs need to be looked at, discussed in detail and then adjusted accordingly. Also a CV bombing from long range can be easily countered by AA guns which mostly everyone uses, or if your skilled enough just simply dodging the bombs, where as with a sub if your caught in range in a BB that's rather slow well you done for. Yet here is a little idea, maybe just maybe we would see a couple more ASW ships to counter the subs if the DP gunners could actually USE HH or depth charges and give them a real extra duty role besides AA. Perhaps these sub drivers need a dose of what it was really like in a sub then, you feared being detected period you did not rush in to shrug off mostly any surface ships shells, no you ran when you seen a rowboat with TNT in bundles heading at ya ready to start flushing you out.

Yet if they really try to stay the way they are then lets do what a few nations did then, arm some planes with depth charges and drop em from altitude and see how the subs like that. there must always be a counter to something and one weapon should not be more powerful than another to counter it, me personally i have a few ideas floating around my head on what we can do.

Also recced, and if i could i would recc some more but sadly can't

Guys, please get this back on track or this thread will be locked. It is close at this time as it has turned towards comments if not flaming each other. I have seen a lot of valid points from many different views. Respect that and try to be logical in your responses.

This thread has been massively cleaned. It had some interesting discussions and as long as people don't take the rout to flameville, it should stay opened.

This is a heated topic, every SS thread that is opened turns into a heated topic and there are people that want to debate about this. For that, this thread has been re-opened, so people can have a space to debate about this with respect and tolerance for other people's opinions. I know people want to talk about this, so here is the space.

I will keep an eye for this thread. Those who break forum rules in this thread will be punished accordingly. Please don't get emotional about it and expose your points in a calmed and rational way. There are valid points both for and against SS, so please respect each other's point of views. Don't flame and choose your words carefully as to not incite flaming from others. Use this space wisely.

Thanks FMs.

I think SSs were a great adition to game.
I think all nerfs done on SSs were needed, specially their ability for absorb damage.

1-BBs and CVs around the same lvl of SS4s can get more or less the same attack in GBs. I think we can agree on that.

2-On other scenario like HAs with team composed basiclly of BB, these ships need SSs or ASW for protect them from enemy SSs. Its the same thing when u need CVs for helping in scout and FC against enemy CVs.
These balance between BB/CV/SS is the secret for good HA teams, if a HA team fails and they BB6s got eaten by SSs is becausse they failed in strategy, not becausse SS4s are overpowered. SSs are supposed to hunt BBs =.=

3-In fleet league scenario on last MOFL we used 2 SS3s per team, they didnt disbalance the battles at all. SSs are quite vulnerable to HHs.


So in the three scenarios GB/FL/HA i dont think SSs are overpowered. I dont think they deserve any kind of nerf. If SDE wants to talk about a "slight redesign of SS gameplay" (for example giving them more air in exchange for speed, or another example more damage to torps but slower reload) maybe it would be interesting to see what options we have and its very important to count with SS drivers opinions about if they want changes or not instead pretend to have the absolute truth.

Anyways i think there are more important things to do than change SSs gameplay.